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Deipnosophistae 1.2

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Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby mahasacham » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:24 pm

I had a question about a passage in the Deipnosophistae about half way down the paragraph in 1.2:

........ἔσχεν ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου διασημότερον Κειτούκειτος. οὗτος ὁ ἀνὴρ νόμον εἶχεν ἴδιον μηδενὸς ἀποτρώγειν πρὶν εἰπεῖν ‘κεῖται ἢ οὐ κεῖται;’ οἷον εἰ κεῖται ὥρα ἐπὶ τοῦ τῆς ἡμέρας μορίου, εἰ ὁ μέθυσος ἐπὶ ἀνδρός, εἰ ἡ μήτρα κεῖται ἐπὶ τοῦ ἐδωδίμου βρώματος, εἰ σύαγρος κεῖται τὸ σύνθετον ἐπὶ τοῦ συός.

I am wondering if someone could explain what the semantic value of "κεῖται" is in this context. I know the basic meaning is to "be laid up" up and can thus mean "to publish something", or "to set up something".

Also if someone could shed some light on what is even trying to be conveyed? It seems like a joke of some kind.

I suspect the individual nick named "Κειτούκειτος" is asking if something can be called "such and such" or if "such and such" word can be applied to "such and such" description.

Also what bearing does this all have on weather he will eat something?
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:38 pm

Perhaps a bit of the context helps:

ὧν κατέτρεχε μετὰ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅσοι τι ἐφθέγγοντο Οὐλπιανὸς ὁ Τύριος, ὃς διὰ τὰς συνεχεῖς ζητήσεις, ἃς ἀνὰ πᾶσαν ὥραν ποιεῖται ἐν ταῖς ἀγυιαῖς, [1e] περιπάτοις, βιβλιοπωλείοις, βαλανείοις ἔσχεν ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου διασημότερον Κειτούκειτος...

Apparently Ulpianus the Tyrian is well known for incessantly asking questions (a bit like Socrates, only much worse). Based on the nature of the questions, he seems to be precursor of lexical semantics... :)

κεῖται in this context, by pragmatic extension something like "be applicable to..."

And yes, his nickname is obviously a pun on the type of questions he liked to ask. If he can outtalk the Cynics, well, would you like to spend time in his company?

Perhaps the idea is that he valued his questions before food?
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby dikaiopolis » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:26 pm

Κειτούκειτος is something like "Dr. attested or not attested." Athenaeus uses his pretentiousness to satirize, deliciously, the sophistry of certain overzealous Atticists, especially lexicographers.

Compare, for instance, this passage from Lucian's ΡΗΤΟΡΩΝ ΔΙΔΑΣΚΑΛΟΣ (with a different sort of gastronomical imagery):

σχήματος μὲν τὸ πρῶτον ἐπιμεληθῆναι χρὴ μάλιστα καὶ εὐμόρφου τῆς ἀναβολῆς, ἔπειτα πεντεκαίδεκα ἢ οὐ πλείω γε τῶν εἴκοσιν Ἀττικὰ ὀνόματα ἐκλέξας ποθὲν ἀκριβῶς ἐκμελετήσας, πρόχειρα ἐπ’ ἄκρας τῆς γλώττης ἔχε—τὸ ἄττα καὶ κᾆτα καὶ μῶν καὶ ἀμηγέπη καὶ λῷστε καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα,—καὶ ἐν ἅπαντι λόγῳ καθάπερ τι ἥδυσμα ἐπίπαττε αὐτῶν.
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby mahasacham » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:43 pm

Thank you this makes much more sense. After going back a little ways, the part about not eating anything before asking if it is attested makes sense because Athenaeus is talking about what happened at the party not necessary how the guy comports himself in all situations in life.

Also I found this article that said the same thing as you Dikaiopolis:
https://platosparks.wordpress.com/2014/ ... t-not-lie/

Also after searching for what "μήτρα" has to do with edible food, I found that it refers to the uterus of a wild boar which was a delicatessen in Rome and can also just mean delicatessen. That must be why it comes before his questioning of weather a certain adjective is attested in reference to a wild boar.
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby dikaiopolis » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:13 pm

Yes, μήτρα refers to the pig's uterus. It comes back in one of the more memorable scenes, the row between Keitoukeitos and Cynulcus in Book 3, stuffed with silly puns:

ΜΗΤΡΑ ἑξῆς ἐπεισηνέχθη, μητρόπολίς τις ὡς ἀληθῶς οὖσα καὶ μήτηρ τῶν Ἱπποκράτους υἱῶν, οὓς εἰς ὑωδίαν κωμῳδουμένους οἶδα. εἰς ἣν ἀποβλέψας ὁ Οὐλπιανὸς ‘ἄγε δή, ἔφη, ἄνδρες φίλοι, παρὰ τίνι κεῖται ἡ μήτρα;...
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby mahasacham » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm

I love me a good pun. They call me the "Punisher" at work!

The womb is the capital city of mankind......not very funny in English.
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby RandyGibbons » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:57 am

Barry, Punisher, dikaiopolis: You guys ARE Deipnosophistae! Impressive.

Punisher: You say the uterus of a wild boar was a delicatessen [sic] in Rome. I think you mean delicacy? Unless you are punishing us and are way over my head :lol: . (Μήτρα might have been a catchy name for a delicatessen's shop, though.)

All: I have the occasional need to look up a reference in the Deipnosophistae and have a general idea of how the work is laid out. What editions of it are you guys using and might recommend?

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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:22 pm

mahasacham wrote:Thank you this makes much more sense. After going back a little ways, the part about not eating anything before asking if it is attested makes sense because Athenaeus is talking about what happened at the party not necessary how the guy comports himself in all situations in life.



It appears to be his usual practice, since Athenaeus describes it as νόμον ἴδιον. His questions are also συνεχεῖς, occurring ἐν ταῖς ἀγυιαῖς, περιπάτοις, βιβλιοπωλείοις, βαλανείοις.

Does κεῖται here mean "attested in earlier literature?" in the sense of simple appearance? Certainly Ulpianus asks such questions later, Οὐλπιανὸς ἔφη ειʼ κεῖται παρά τινι τὸ πρόπομα οὕτω καλούμενον ὡς νῦν ἡμεῖς φαμεν... But even there he appears to be talking about the meaning of the word rather than simply its occurrence.
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby dikaiopolis » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:23 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Does κεῖται here mean "attested in earlier literature?" in the sense of simple appearance? Certainly Ulpianus asks such questions later, Οὐλπιανὸς ἔφη ειʼ κεῖται παρά τινι τὸ πρόπομα οὕτω καλούμενον ὡς νῦν ἡμεῖς φαμεν... But even there he appears to be talking about the meaning of the word rather than simply its occurrence.


Not sure I follow the distinction. E.g., "is ὥρα attested in the sense of a part of the day?" He's asking here, as a hyperatticist, if words occur in a specific sense in classical literature.

Randy: I usually use Olson's LCL or Kaibel's older ed. on the TLG. There's also a Digital Athenaeus project that I'm less familiar with.
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Re: Deipnosophistae 1.2

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:31 pm

dikaiopolis wrote:
Not sure I follow the distinction. E.g., "is ὥρα attested in the sense of a part of the day?" He's asking here, as a hyperatticist, if words occur in a specific sense in classical literature.


It wasn't completely clear to me that that that's what you intended by "attested," so just clarifying.

Randy: I usually use Olson's LCL or Kaibel's older ed. on the TLG. There's also a Digital Athenaeus project that I'm less familiar with.


And of course Perseus:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 13.01.0001
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