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Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν

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Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν

Postby QuintusTheCuck » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 pm

οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν.


I know that by adding the article after the word for "citizens", it renders the sentence to "the citizens who", as this example shows:


https://imgur.com/pJ4mUkw

But my study-book also translates a dative followed by present participle as "because":
https://imgur.com/a/1mrCq3l

How do I know if the translation of "οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν" is "the citizens, who were present, admired in the market" or is "the citizens, because were present in the market, admired."

Thanks ! (I'm new btw, the book I'm using is Greek to GCSE, Part 1, by John Taylor. My references are from Page 90 and 91)
Last edited by QuintusTheCuck on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can't translate: οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυ

Postby bedwere » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:15 am

You should look at what is bracketed between the article and the noun or participle it is linked to. In this case, ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ is sandwiched between οἱ and παρόντες. Hence it must be who were present in the square. Translating with "because" depends on the context.
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Re: Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμ

Postby QuintusTheCuck » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 am

Would it be more sensible to translate "οἱ πολῖται ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν." as "the citizens, because were present in the market, admired." ?

Does the second "οἱ" confirm that the meaning is actually "the citizens, who were present, admired in the market", even if context suggests the former?
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Re: Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμ

Postby jeidsath » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:52 am

παρόντες has to be parsed separately from οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ, doesn't it? The second οἱ doesn't need another substantive.

The citizens in the marketplace, being present/because they were present, marveled.
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Re: Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμ

Postby mwh » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:38 am

(1) οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν. The citizens who were present in the market [as distinct from citizens who weren’t present in the market] were amazed. (As bedwere tried to explain, ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ has to go with οἱ παρόντες not with ἐθαυμασαν.)
Contrast (2) οἱ πολῖται ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν. The citizens, being present in the market [this could mean because they were present in the market or while they were present in the market], were amazed.
This illustrates the difference between having an article with the participle (οἱ … παρόντες) and having no article with the participle.

Another way of saying (1) would be (3) οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες πολῖται ἐθαυμασαν, lit. The-being-present-in-the-market-citizens were amazed. Sandwiching the participial phrase ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες between οἱ and πολῖται is equivalent to repeating οἰ after οἱ πολῖται as in (1). Both make clear that ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες qualifies οἱ πολῖται.

At the risk of confusing you (or confusing you further?!), there’s also οἱ πολῖται, οἳ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρῆσαν, ἐθαυμασαν, a relative clause: The citizens, who were present in the market, were amazed. (Probably implying that non-citizens were not present in the market.)

(jeidsath’s construal of (1), referring οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ and παρόντες separately to οἱ πολῖται, is grammatically possible but forced, and I suspect not what the study-book is getting at.)
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Re: Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμ

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:15 pm

mwh wrote:(1) οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν. The citizens who were present in the market [as distinct from citizens who weren’t present in the market] were amazed. (As bedwere tried to explain, ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ has to go with οἱ παρόντες not with ἐθαυμασαν.)
Contrast (2) οἱ πολῖται ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμασαν. The citizens, being present in the market [this could mean because they were present in the market or while they were present in the market], were amazed.
This illustrates the difference between having an article with the participle (οἱ … παρόντες) and having no article with the participle.



This is often called the attributive use of the participle/adjective. It could also have been expressed:

οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀργορᾷ παρόντες πολῖται ἐθαὐμασαν.

The two ways of doing the attributive position are as in your original example, when the article is repeated with the modifier, or to "sandwich" the modifier in between the article and the noun.

If the modifier is not associated in any with the the article, then it is in the predicate position, and would be rendered as MWH has explained above.
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Re: Can't translate:οἱ πολῖται οἱ ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παρόντες ἐθαυμ

Postby mwh » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:52 pm

Evidently Barry didn’t read my (3). And I deliberately avoided the grammatical terms “attributive” and “predicative” (let alone “modifier”). But they can be very useful, whether or not we think in terms of “doing the attributive position.” :)
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