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Passage in Hellenikon Padion

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Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Ursinus » Tue May 15, 2018 12:44 pm

I'm being tripped up by the following passage if any of you could help. (Also I am using iota superscripts because they are easier to write. Ἔστι γὰρ μικρὸν και στρογγύλον τὸ ὠιόν, καὶ τὰ μὲν τῶν ὠιῶν ἐστι λευκά, τὰ δ' οὔ. τὰ δ΄ὠιὰ τὼν ὀρνιθίων ἔχει ἐκτὸς μὲν τὸ λευκόν, ἐντὸς δὲ τὸ ὠχρόν.

Could some one give me a literal translation? The meanings of a couple of the words seem to make no sense to me. Thanks.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue May 15, 2018 1:05 pm

"The egg is small and spherical, some parts of eggs are white, other parts are not. The eggs of chickens are white on the outside, yellow within."
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Ursinus » Tue May 15, 2018 1:22 pm

Thanks. Makes complete sense now.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Ursinus » Tue May 29, 2018 1:11 pm

I have a question about the second clause of this sentence: κάτωθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν σκοποῦμεν, εἴ που καλιὰ ἐστιν. My attempt at translation: We look down and up, if perhaps there are [any] nests." The που is what is tripping me up. Couldn't it mean either perhaps (or doutbtless, I suppose) or anywhere/somewhere? Either translation seems to make sense. But my Greek is not good enough to discern use well, yet.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Ursinus » Tue May 29, 2018 1:18 pm

Another question: this one about a question. ἆρ΄ ἐρωτᾱς ἐμὲ, πότερον ἀναβαίνει καὶ ἡ άδελφὴ έπὶ τὰ δένδρα;

πότερον is giving me trouble. I know it functions like the Latin particle utrum, but the sentence is tripping me up, nonetheless. Here's my translation: But you ask me, which [of us] goes up upon the trees and my sister." Clearly wrong. Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Hylander » Tue May 29, 2018 2:15 pm

κάτωθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν σκοποῦμεν, εἴ που καλιὰ ἐστιν.

που -- "somewhere." εἴ -- "whether." Here, σκοποῦμεν εἴ is equivalent to "look [and see] whether."

ἆρ΄ ἐρωτᾱς ἐμὲ, πότερον ἀναβαίνει καὶ ἡ άδελφὴ έπὶ τὰ δένδρα;

πότερον here also translates as "whether," and καὶ translates as "also" or "too."

"Are you asking me whether [my] sister also climbs trees?"
Last edited by Hylander on Tue May 29, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Ursinus » Tue May 29, 2018 2:25 pm

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Hylander » Tue May 29, 2018 2:30 pm

See post as edited after your last post.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby jeidsath » Tue May 29, 2018 3:35 pm

κάτωθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν σκοποῦμεν

Why isn't this "We look from below and from above..."?
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby jeidsath » Tue May 29, 2018 3:51 pm

Yes, I looked them up in Perseus as well, to see if there was any justification for this usage. The original Rouse version had it right, IMO:

περιπατοῦμεν γὰρ κατὰ τὴν ὕλην· κάτωθεν δὲ σκοποῦμεν, εἴ που καλιά τίς ἔστιν.

"...we look from below..."

I think that ἄνωθεν is simply a mistake.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:32 am

jeidsath wrote:Yes, I looked them up in Perseus as well, to see if there was any justification for this usage. The original Rouse version had it right, IMO:

περιπατοῦμεν γὰρ κατὰ τὴν ὕλην· κάτωθεν δὲ σκοποῦμεν, εἴ που καλιά τίς ἔστιν.

"...we look from below..."

I think that ἄνωθεν is simply a mistake.

I'm not sure which type of mistake you are making this assertion about, but if you are looking for ἄνωθεν with a verb of seeing, have a look at:
Longus 2.20.2 wrote:ὥστε ἄνωθεν θεασάμενος τὴν καταδρομὴν ἐνέκρυψεν ἑαυτὸν στελέχει κοίλῳ ξηρᾶς ὀξύης
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:42 am

Hylander wrote:
Ursinus wrote:I have a question about the second clause of this sentence: κάτωθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν σκοποῦμεν, εἴ που καλιὰ ἐστιν. My attempt at translation: We look down and up, if perhaps there are [any] nests." The που is what is tripping me up. Couldn't it mean either perhaps (or doutbtless, I suppose) or anywhere/somewhere? Either translation seems to make sense. But my Greek is not good enough to discern use well, yet.
που -- "somewhere." εἴ -- "whether." Here, σκοποῦμεν εἴ is equivalent to "look [and see] whether."
A nest is a material and physical thing, so its possible existence implies a place. In the singular (καλιὰ), however, there is not much difference between "whether perhaps there is a nest" and "whether somewhere there is a nest". If it was plural, there would also be the complication of "How many?", and "Where are each of them?" in addition to the simple question about existence (somewhere) or not.

Could there be a preference or limitation of using που with the various moods?
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby jeidsath » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:31 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:I'm not sure which type of mistake you are making this assertion about, but if you are looking for ἄνωθεν with a verb of seeing, have a look at:
Longus 2.20.2 wrote:ὥστε ἄνωθεν θεασάμενος τὴν καταδρομὴν ἐνέκρυψεν ἑαυτὸν στελέχει κοίλῳ ξηρᾶς ὀξύης


You've mistaken my objection, which is: ἄνωθεν and κάτωθεν with a verb of seeing mean "look from above" and "look from below." They refer to the position of the observer, not the location being looked at.

Longus is a perfect example. ἄνωθεν θεασάμενος τὴν καταδρομὴν. The ἄνωθεν refers to his position, not where he is looking. He saw the raid "from above". Not "he looked up at the raid."

Similarly "κάτωθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν σκοποῦμεν" means "we look from below and from above." Implying that in addition to searching from the ground, they climbed to the top of trees to search for nests below them, which is just silly. The author of Hellenikon Padion evidently thought it means "we look down and up."

Rouse, who the author of Hellenikon Padion is trying to copy from, gets the usage right: the children, walking on the ground, look from the ground up into the tree for nests. περιπατοῦμεν γὰρ κατὰ τὴν ὕλην· κάτωθεν δὲ σκοποῦμεν, εἴ που καλιά τίς ἔστιν.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:10 pm

jeidsath wrote:Similarly "κάτωθεν καὶ ἄνωθεν σκοποῦμεν" means "we look from below and from above." Implying that in addition to searching from the ground, they climbed to the top of trees to search for nests below them, which is just silly.

Would it have meaning, do you think, if the observers were standing not some little distance from the tree? In other words, could it refer to the path the eyes took on the tree - they double checked? If it could, then the obvious question is, "How close?"

The author of Hellenikon Padion evidently thought it means "we look down and up."

Though it's hard to guess what he meant, let's just for speculation's sake, and not necessarily agreeing with myself, perhaps understand it to mean, "we look (through the tree) from the top (down), and from the bottom (up)."
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby jeidsath » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:32 pm

You're welcome to look for examples in the surviving texts if you like. You could also email Mario Díaz Ávila to ask him to explain himself. But it looks like a goof to me.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Ursinus » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:13 pm

First of all, thanks again for all of your help. I really appreciate it.

I have a couple more passages that need clarification. I understand the general sense of them all, but am tripped up about the exact shade of meaning of a few words.

First: περιπατοῦμεν γὰρ κατὰ τὴν ὕλην. My translation: For we walk (down to or about?) the woods.

Next: μικρότερος γάρ ἐστι καὶ μιαρὰν ἔχει τὴν φωνὴν... for it is smaller and has a bloody (displeasing?) voice.

Third: καὶ ἄγει ἐμὲ εἰσ τὴν κώμην παρὰ τὸν διδάσκαλον. and he leads me to the town to the teacher. Here παρα is tripping me up. I get that he (in this case the παιδαγωγὸς) is taking the boy to the town where the teacher or tutor is.
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Re: Passage in Hellenikon Padion

Postby Hylander » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:37 am

κατὰ here is probably best translated "through" or "throughout".

LSJ κατά with accusative:

2. with or without signf. of motion, on, over, throughout a space, freq. in Hom., “καθ᾽ Ἑλλάδα καὶ μέσον Ἄργος” Od.1.344; κατ᾽ Ἀχαΐδα, κ. Τροίην, Il.11.770, 9.329; “κατ᾽ ἠερόεντα κέλευθα” Od.20.64; κ. πόντον, κῦμα, ὕλην, Il.4.276, 6.136, 3.151; “κ. πτόλιν” Od.2.383; κ. ἄστυ, οἶκον, Il.18.286, 6.56; κ. ὅμιλον, στρατόν, 3.36, 1.229; κ. κλισίας τε νέας τε ib.487; “πόλεμον κάτα δακρυόεντα” 17.512; κ. ὑσμίνην, μόθον, κλόνον, 5.84, 18.159, 16.331; “τὸ ὕδωρ κ. τοὺς ταφροὺς ἐχώρει” X.Cyr.7.5.16, etc. (in later Gr.of motion to a place, “κ. τὴν Ἰταλίαν” Zos.3.1); “καθ᾽ Ἑλλάδα” A.Ag.578; “κ. πτόλιν” Id.Th.6; “αἱ σκηναὶ αἱ κ. τὴν ἀγοράν” D.18.169; “τὰ κατ᾽ ἀγροὺς Διονύσια” Aeschin.1.157, etc.; “κ. τὸ προάστιον” Hdt.3.54; “τύμβον κατ᾽ αὐτόν” A. Th.528, cf. Supp.869 (lyr.):


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1

μιαρὰν ἔχει τὴν φωνὴν

The person who wrote this text apparently got this usage from Aristophanes' Knights 208. See LSJ μιαρός:

4. in moral sense, abominable, foul, “ὦ μ. ἦθος” S.Ant.746; repulsive to the moral sense, Arist.Po.1452b36, al.: freq. in Ar. as a term of reproach, blackguard, “μ. κεφαλή” Ach. 285, cf. 282; μιαρώτατος ib.182; μ. φωνή coarse, brutal voice, Eq. 218, cf. S.Tr.987 (anap.); “μιαρώτατος περὶ τὸν δῆμον” Ar.Eq.831; “μ. τε καὶ ὀλιγαρχικούς” Pl.R.562d. Adv. -“ρῶς” Ar.Eq.800; “οὕτω φανερῶς καὶ μ.” D.21.69.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dmiaro%2Fs

If you look at the passage in Aristophanes, he is referring to demagoguery:

τὰ δ᾽ ἄλλα σοι πρόσεστι δημαγωγικά,
φωνὴ μιαρά, γέγονας κακῶς, ἀγοραῖος εἶ:

"You have all the other attributes for demagoguery: your voice is brutal, you're low-born, you're marketplace rabble . . . "

A.'s expression φωνὴ μιαρά has an ethical connotation. It doesn't just mean the voice is shrill or unpleasant--it implies that the actual words the voice utters are as noxious and despicable as the voice is shrill. I haven't looked at the passage you're reading, but if it's about birds, φωνὴ μιαρά seems utterly misplaced. If I were writing a Greek textbook for young students of Greek, I think I'd be more cautious about snatching expressions from Aristophanes' comedies and using them out of context.

εις/παρα

εις is "to" a place, or more exactly "into" an area such as a city; παρα + accusative is "to" a person, to his or her presence. You don't go "into" a person.
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