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Where is the brazen sky?

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Where is the brazen sky?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:18 am

In discussions of colour perception, authours mention that Homer saw the sky as brazen. I can only find it described as "iron". Are there other words for bronze besides the χαλκ- family and other words for heaven besides οὐρανός?
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby jeidsath » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:40 am

Ε502 αἳ δ’ ὑπολευκαίνονται ἀχυρμιαί· ὣς τότ’ Ἀχαιοὶ
Ε503 λευκοὶ ὕπερθε γένοντο κονισάλῳ, ὅν ῥα δι’ αὐτῶν
Ε504 οὐρανὸν ἐς πολύχαλκον ἐπέπληγον πόδες ἵππων
Ε505 ἂψ ἐπιμισγομένων· ὑπὸ δ’ ἔστρεφον ἡνιοχῆες.


Ρ424 ὣς οἳ μὲν μάρναντο, σιδήρειος δ’ ὀρυμαγδὸς
Ρ425 χάλκεον οὐρανὸν ἷκε δι’ αἰθέρος ἀτρυγέτοιο·


γ1 Ἠέλιος δ’ ἀνόρουσε, λιπὼν περικαλλέα λίμνην,
γ2 οὐρανὸν ἐς πολύχαλκον, ἵν’ ἀθανάτοισι φαείνοι
γ3 καὶ θνητοῖσι βροτοῖσιν ἐπὶ ζείδωρον ἄρουραν·
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:19 am

Thanks.

What did χαλκός mean before the invention of bronze? Or what concept was the word derived from?
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby jeidsath » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:27 pm

Image
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:02 pm

Jeidseth's source wrote:The similarity with the word for "purple", κάλχη, also χάλκη and χαλχη is hardly accidental.

LSJ wrote:κάλχη , ἡ, (perh. a loan-word)
A. [select] murex, purple limpet, = πορφύρα, Nic.Al.393.
2. [select] purple dye, Str.11.14.9.
II. [select] rosette on the capitals of columns, IG12.372.90, 4.1484.83 (Epid., iv B.C.), 11(2).161A73 (Delos, iii B.C.), Hsch.:—written Χάλκη IG12.374.317, al., Χάλχη ib.374.103.
III. [select] purple flower, Chrysanthemum coronarium, Alcm.39, Nic.Dam.76J.:—written Χάλκη in Nic.Fr.74.60, cf. Ps.-Dsc.4.58.

Chrysanthemum coronarium or Glebionis coronaria is apparently yellow (and sometimes with some white). At least it is in all the pictures in the wikipedia article. Eg. Here is a picture of a field of garland daisies.

Image

But the dye from the murex appears what I would say to be purple. Here is a picture of a murex being used to dye thread.

Image
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:11 pm

For the word originating from the east, and taking into account the possible switching of the consonants, the Greek words may be derived from the toponym Colchis (Κολχίς from the Urartian Qulḫa) where the Colcian tribes lived and the there was a Colchian kingdom from the 13th to the 1st century BCE, on the eastern shore of the Black Sea. It has been suggested that Laz (a branch of the Kartvelian family of laguages, which has been indeginous to the area at least since 2,500 or 2,000 BCE) is the direct descendent of the language spoken in Cochlis in ancient times.
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby mwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:03 pm

The botanical identification is obviously wrong (as so often with Linnaean identifications). Presumably it was based on the “golden necklace” (χρύσιον ὅρμον) in Alcman’s line. The κάλχη (better χάλκη?), whatever it is, must have bronze-colored flowers.

And εκηβολε, we mustn’t confuse πορφύρεος with χάλκεος.
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby Anthony Appleyard » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:28 pm

I am in England :: I once saw a brazen sky, or approximately. To quote from my diary:

2017 October
- Mon 15 Oct: I rode to Chester Zoo. Ophelia ([old Caribbean] hurricane) came ... Sky on way out strange and dull with Sahara sand and Portuguese forest fire smoke, sun faint & red.
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Re: Where is the brazen sky?

Postby Anthony Appleyard » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:50 pm

mwh wrote:The botanical identification is obviously wrong (as so often with Linnaean identifications) ...


Often in Latin written or translated in modern times, a Linnaean name is used for an organism that there is no classical name for. For example, Harry Potter book 1 in passing mentions a whelk, and the Latin translation calls it 'buccinum undatum'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whelk
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