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ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:58 pm

69.17 I am delighted to see the Modern Greek for café, καφενεῖον. But that kaf-en- stem should put you in suspicion: it's a Katharevousa adornment of the Demotic καφενές, which is in turn a loan from Turkish kahvene < kahve-hane < Persian qahveh-khaneh "house of coffee".

https://anemourion.blogspot.com/2017/09/blog-post_53.html (drawing from a 1980s book on 19th century café culture) reports that some 19th century café owners rejected καφενεῖον as barbarous (too close to kahvene) and used καφεῖον. Hepites' 1912 French–Modern Greek dictionary (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=m0 ... =PA145&dq=καφείον+καφενείον&source=bl&ots=02FtwK5_UU&sig=UmadbjQugEqkG73zDTeWT9Df_Ss&hl=el&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimk8K4u-_cAhULy7wKHbmiDy8Q6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=καφείον%20καφενείον&f=false) also offers it as an option. I'm delighted to see the Modern Greek for café, but I reluctantly agree with my 19th century antecedents: καφεῖον is to be preferred.

... and it has the benefit of not-so-accidentally being the same as Esperanto kafejo (its -ejo suffix is taken from -εῖον.)

70.3, 70.5 You're using φάκελος for both "folder" and "envelope"; and Modern Greek does the same. I normally applaud the use of Modern terms, but the Ancient meaning "bundle" seems too far removed. Might you consider δίπτυχον for "folder"? And καλύπτρα or θύλακος for "envelope"?

72.2 πηκτικὴ ὑγρότης? Surely πηκτικὸν ὑγρόν.

72.7 ξηρο-ποιὸν μηχᾰν-ημα, ατος, τό. Modern Greek just calls this a "little pistol" (πιστολάκι), which I'm not suggesting. But Modern Greek would also never refer to dried hair as ξηρά, only στεγνά; ξηρά μαλλιά is dry hair, as in pathologically dry, flaking off. (And note that LSJ defines ξηραίνω as "dry up, parch", I would suggest στεγνωτήρ (which in Modern Greek is a hand dryer).
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:42 pm

Thank you! I'll include the changes in the new revision.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:21 pm

73.3 σῑτ-ηρὸν πνεῦμα, ατος, τό: There are a few points against this. πνεῦμα for distilled alcohol is not Ancient (just as distillation wasn't), is not mediaeval (at least, not in Trapp's Lexikon), and is barely going to be recognisable from Modern Greek ("alcohol" is οἰνόπνευμα, though that is a Modern calque; the vernacular had borrowed Italian spirito as σπίρτο.) But more to the point, "wheat spirit" is a description, which also applies to gin and (now) vodka. This is a drink originally from a particular place, it should be treated as a loanword, and the Latin does just have vischium. Conceding and using οὐίσκιον, which is what Modern Greek does (without the -ον) is the most clean way forward.

73.6 ὑᾰλ-ῐνον ποτήριον οἴνου, τό, ὑᾰλ-ῐνον ἔκ-πωμα οἴνου, ατος, τό. Of course, noone is going to say all that, it'll just be ποτήριον (like Modern Greek) or ἔκπωμα. I see in LSJ that the adjective ὑαλοῦν does get used for ἔκπωμα, and it wouldn't be that absurd, just as in English, to generalise "glass" to denote a drinking vessel. (Early Modern Greek did with γιαλί < ὑαλίον, although Modern Greek speakers will only be aware of the other generalisation, "mirror", and even that is now antiquated.)

You differentiate wine glass from beer glass 73.21. Modern Greek has κρασοπότηρο for "wine glass", and οἰνοπότηρον, ζυθοπότηρον will be quite intelligible; I don't think it essential to specify that they are glass (and you've got ζυθοχόη 73.5 standing by for beer steins anyway.)

73.15 ἐπιτρᾰπέζ-ιος ὀθόν-η, ἡ. The fact that as a Modern Greek speaker I do a double-take, because οθόνη is now restricted to "screen", is my problem, not yours. ὀθόνη is good. τραπεζοθόνη (after the Modern τραπεζομάντηλο, from the Latin mantele) is another possibility.

73.17 λόγ-ισμα ἀργῠρίου, ατος, τό. I see the phrase in LSJ, but λόγισμα by itself seems to be unambiguous to me.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:04 am

74.16 ψωμ-ίον, τό. Yes, I see it's the only instance of "bun" in LSJ, but it's neither fish nor fowl: its sense as "bread" is post-Classical (which is fine), but because of the shift to diminutives, it is the normal Modern word for bread. I'd have preferred πλακοῦς, with some expected cultural translation. If you want a small loaf of bread, which is what Hellenistic ψωμίον is ("a bun for a crocodile", no less) ἀρτίδιον is there in Diogenes Laertes.

74.20 κιτρᾶτον, τό: a delightful find!

76.3 οὐρὰ ὀχ-ημάτων, ἡ. We do indeed call a queue an οὐρά in Modern Greek (the same metaphor underlies "queue" itself); but I'd have thought στοῖχος is safer.

76.13 ὁδός ἑνὸς δρόμου, ἡ. Modern Greek has μονόδρομος; μονόδρομος ὁδός would be more succinct, at least.

77.2 αὐτο-κῑνούμενον οἰκ-ίδιον [ῑδ], τό, ὑπότροχ-ον οἰκ-ίδιον [ῑδ], τό. τροχόσπιτο in Modern Greek, "wheel-house" (σπίτι < Latin hospitium). I was going to suggest τρόχοικος, but X-οικος in Ancient Greek tends to be bahuvrihi, someone who lives in an X. Given ἁμάξοικος "wagon-dweller" in Strabo, maybe οἰκάμαξα? Cf. ἁρμάμαξα "covered wagon".

77.8 κῑν-ητό-κυκλον (ὄχ-ημα, ατος), τό. Proposed in https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/grc/Βικιπαιδεία:Ἀγορά/Λόγιοι_Ἑλληνικοὶ_ὅροι_περὶ_συγχρόνων_ἐννοιῶν for motorbike, I see. But the use of Latin "motor" to mean mechanically propelled motion does not extent to Greek κινητ-, so I don't see this working. It's an αὐτοκίνητον δίκυκλον, if you'll use that calque of birota ~ bicycle...

... Which you haven't in 77.13: ποδήλᾰτον, τό is indeed what Modern Greek calls bicycles. But you don't want to emphasise that it is footpowered when it is motorised! https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μοτοσικλέτα speaks of δίτροχα and τρίτροχα in its typology of motorbikes, and that seems safest: αὐτοκίνητον δίτροχον, maybe μηχανοδίτροχον. (The colloquial Modern Greek for motorbike is μηχανάκι, "little machine".)

At a mininum, change κῑνητό-κυκλον to -τροχον: Greek differentiates wheels from cycles...

77.24 τρίκυκλον [ῐ], τό. ... Yes, yes, yes, Modern Greek unthinkingly borrowed tricycle as τρίκυκλο. But it is a τρίτροχον, really. Modern Greek, it turns out, uses τρίτροχο for motorised tricycles (trikes) and τρίκυκλο for foot-driven tricycles.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:55 am

78.26 ἀερο-σάκ(κ)ος, ὁ: ἀερόσακκος, surely. That's the accentuation used in Modern Greek too.

78.28 πέδῑλον χᾰλῑνοῦ, τό, χᾰλῑνός, ὁ. The Katharevousa for this is Herodes Atticus' τροχοπέδη "the drag or brake of a wheel", although that's more associated with trains. (Which indeed is why it shows up in your list under trains, 82.16 τροχο-πέδη ἀσφᾰλ-είας, ἡ). The vernacular for car brake, φρένο, is an Italian loanword, which doesn't help you.

78.35 ὀχημᾰτῐκὰ γράμματα, τά. I don't know what this is supposed to be, but Latin litterae tends to be something more document-like than γράμματα.

83.1 ἠλεκτρο-κῑν-ήτη μηχᾰν-ή, ἡ: should be ἠλεκτροκίνητος: don't get misled by Modern Greek no longer having two-ending adjectives. Ditto 83.3 , 83.9

83.8 κῑν-ητικὴ μηχᾰν-ὴ ἁμαξο-στοιχίας, ἡ. We can do better for locomotive. The default Modern Greek is μηχανή τρένου, "train engine" (lit. "train machine"), but I note that https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μηχανή_σειράς_120_ΟΣΕ, a Wikipedia article on a Greek locomotive, describes it as a μηχανή έλξης, "pulling engine". So μηχᾰν-ὴ ἕλξεως [ἁμαξοστοιχίας].

84.4 τηλεφόρος δρόμος, ὁ. So much more attractive for "cable car/funicular" than the Modern Greek loan from French, τελεφερίκ (télépherique). It isn't terribly intuitive though, if you don't already know the French for cable car.

καλωδιόδρομος does occasionally show up online, and, I have to say, is a little more intuitive. (Not just because it is closer to "cable car".) But καλωδιόδρομος appears in industrial contexts, not passenger contexts; https://multitran.com/m.exe?a=3&l1=1&l2=38&s=cably renders it as "cable trough".
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm

85.8 ἱερὰ ἀποδημ-ία, ἡ, ἱερὰ ὁδοιπορ-ία, ἡ. Clunky for "pilgrimage", but Modern Greek does not help here: it uses the confusing προσκύνημα "act of worship", and from what I can tell, that is Early Modern Greek (it's in Kriaras' dictionary but not Lampe or Trapp.) Not finding "pilgrim" in Lampe or "Wahlfahrt" in Trapp, but the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium confirms that the Greek term was προσκύνημα; the Slavonic term, by contrast, was a calque of ὁδοιπορία.

The correct term, then, is προσκύνημα; but given how opaque it will be to non-Greeks, ἱερὰ ὁδοιπορία should be allowed as an alternative.

86.9 ἐπιστολ-ικὸν περι-κάλυμμα [κᾰ], ατος, τό: didn't I say to get rid of φάκελος in the office context above? Here, you have. But in that case, why is envelope being listed in this dictionary twice?

91.27 κῑβωτο-ειδὲς μαγνητό-φωνον, τό. Modern Greek of course just borrowed "casette" into κασετόφωνο. If you're calquing "casette" as κιβωτός, I'd be tempted to called this κιβωτόφωνον, but admittedly people would be scratching their heads at that.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:56 pm

Many thanks again! Please check your mail.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:39 pm

93.12 στᾰτὸν ὡρολόγ-ιον, τό. The Modern Greek for Grandfather Clock is ρολόι δαπέδου, "floor clock". I'll admit it's not that intuitive. (It was also unfamiliar to me; I thought it was also called a pendulum clock, εκκρεμές.)

94.15 βάτι, τό. In the 1919 Greek school curriculum http://iaen.vima.ekt.gr/ta_programmata_ ... ch_string=χιλιοβάττιον , the Watt was transcribed as βάττιον, which is more pleasant. I see you're patterning βάτι after κόμμι; possible, but if you're going to add a vowel to Watt, you might as well add two. The Latin you're translating has, after all: vattium.

95.1 ὑπερ-βρᾰχὴ κύματα [ῡ], τά. 95.2 βρᾰχὴ κύματα [ῡ], τά. You mean βραχῆ. Modern Greek couldn't deal with the Attic contract here, and uses βραχέα.

95.14 νέα, τά. In Modern Greek, this is the colloquial term for "news"; the formal term is εἰδήσεις.

95.15 ἄγγελος. A messenger as a radio/TV announcer! Hm. http://www.wordreference.com/gren/παρουσιαστής says that the current term is "presenter", παρουσιαστής, and the older term is "announcer" (particular to radio), εκφωνητής. The "give a presentation" sense of παρουσιάζω is Modern. I'd have gone with ἀνακοινωτής, "one who announces, informs".

97.16 γῠνὴ ὑποκρῐνομένη ἐν τῇ σκήνῃ, γυναικός, ἡ. Notwithstanding that female actors are a recent innovation, I don't see why you wouldn't just say ὑποκρίτρια. The fact that in Modern Greek we've limited ὑποκριτής to "hypocrite" (Christ's usage matters), and replaced "actor" with ἠθοποιός, is once again my problem, not yours.

98.10 ὑποστιγμή, ἡ. Yes, that had the function of the comma, but not the form: it was a low dot. I'd prefer διαστολή, if only because Modern Greeks will recognise it as the name of the comma used in ὅ,τι.

98.11 ἄνω τελεία, ἡ. You're clearly translating by function, not form.

102.19 πολῑτ-ῐκὴ μερ-ίς, ίδος, ἡ, πολῑτ-ῐκὸν κόμμα, ατος, τό. Modern Greek only uses κόμμα, but that's a quite counterintuitive calque of French partie, as "something cut apart". I would have thought φρατρία was the more Classical form, and it does get used pejoratively in Modern Greek with reference to partisanship. (Or should I say, even more pejoratively than κόμμα.)

105.9 βᾰσῐλ-εύς, έως, ὁ. That's a rex, not an imperator; the Byzantines relished in making the point that they had the emperor, and that the Beef-Eaters in the West playing at ruling their fellow barbarians were mere ῥῆγες, reges. (They were not as consistent about the division as I like to think, though.)
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:33 pm

opoudjis wrote:72.7 ξηρο-ποιὸν μηχᾰν-ημα, ατος, τό. Modern Greek just calls this a "little pistol" (πιστολάκι), which I'm not suggesting. But Modern Greek would also never refer to dried hair as ξηρά, only στεγνά; ξηρά μαλλιά is dry hair, as in pathologically dry, flaking off. (And note that LSJ defines ξηραίνω as "dry up, parch", I would suggest στεγνωτήρ (which in Modern Greek is a hand dryer).


I'm not convinced with στεγνωτήρ

στεγν-όω means

A close, πώματι τὸ ἀγγεῖον Gal.17(2).160, cf. 161:—Pass., Hero Spir. 1Praef., al.; of the pores, Gal.18(1).145.
2 make a building watertight, IG11(2).154 A 36, cf. 161 A114 (Delos, iii B.C.): —Pass., of embankments, χώματα ἐστεγνωμένα PSI4.315.25 (ii A.D.).
II make costive, Alex.Aphr.Pr.1 Praef. (Pass.); check discharge, μήτρα ἐστεγνωμένη Dsc.1.23; ὦτα πυορροοῦντα στεγνοῖ Id.2.81.
2 compress, πάπυρος στεγνουμένη Id.1.86; ἔριον μαλακὸν ἐστενωμένον (fort. ἐστεγνωμένον) Heliod. ap. Orib.46.19.2.


I did find στεγνωτήρ in Dimitrakou, but it means orthodontic device.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:28 am

Yes, I saw that in the LSJ definition, that στεγνός < στεγανός is properly "watertight". But with ξηρός properly "dried up", neither adjective is quite right.

We're at an impass then: how does Ancient Greek refer to drying hair? ξηρός offends my Modern Sprachgefühl, which is not a strong argument, but does raise a query; you are right that στεγανός would not have started with the right meaning either.

I can find no instances of dry/drying/dried + hair among the Perseus translations corpus. (I am astonished that Perseus' English search does no stemming, though perhaps I shouldn't be; you need to search for English inflections separately.) For drying clothes, I can only find Odyssey 6.98 εἵματα δ᾽ ἠελίοιο μένον τερσήμεναι αὐγῇ; but we don't want a Homeric τέρσομαι here.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby mwh » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:31 am

Ancient ships needed to be dried out after spending much time at sea. Thucydides uses ἡ ξηρότης of fresh ships (7.12.3), and ξηρός simply means dry, not necessarily dried up. When they get waterlogged they need to be beached to διαψύξαι them, dry them out by airing them (ib. 4). Hair after bathing will have been dried the same way, in the open air, no hair dryers required. It helps to have a warm climate.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:43 am

Our game is to figure out what an ancient Greek would have called a modern thing, if he had seen one.
It seems also to me that the word for hair drier should be something connected with ξηρός. If you object to ξηρο-ποιὸν μηχᾰν-ημα, ατος, τό (which is rather ugly, I admit), why not using (τριχο)-ξηραντήρ
or (τριχο)-ζηραντήριον?
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:33 am

opoudjis wrote:76.3 οὐρὰ ὀχ-ημάτων, ἡ. We do indeed call a queue an οὐρά in Modern Greek (the same metaphor underlies "queue" itself); but I'd have thought στοῖχος is safer.

Since οὐρά can me said of
II. of an army marching, rearguard, rear, X.An.3.4.38, etc.; ἡ οὐ. τοῦ κέρατος rear-rank, ib.6.5.5; κατ᾽ οὐράν τινος ἕπεσθαι to follow in his rear, Id.Cyr.2.3.21, cf. 2.4.3; ὁ κατ᾽ οὐ. the rear-rank man, ib.5.3.45; ἐπ᾽ οὐράν to the rear, Id.Ages.2.2; “εἰς οὐράν” Ael.NA16.33; ἐπ᾽ οὐρᾷ τῶν ἱππέων in rear, X.HG4.3.4; κατ᾽ οὐρὰν προσπίπτειν to attack in rear, Plb.2.67.2.

let's have both.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:57 pm

Hair drying: welp, I think Aristotle confirms that it is ξηραίνω and not στεγνόω in Ancient Greek:

Problemata 966b:

ἢ τὰ μὲν ἐκτὸς γίνονται θερμότεροι, τὰ δ’ ἐντὸς περιψύχονται διὰ τὸ βρεχομένων αὐτῶν ἀεὶ ξηραίνεσθαι ὑπὸ τοῦ ἡλίου τὰ πέριξ; τούτων δὲ τοῦτο πασχόντων αἱ τρίχες ξηραινόμεναι λεπτύνονται καὶ πυρροῦνται. καὶ πάντες δὲ οἱ πρὸς ἄρκτον πυρρότριχες καὶ λεπτότριχές εἰσιν.

Or is it because they [fishermen] are warmer in their outer parts, but their inner parts are chilled, because, owing to their getting wet, the surrounding parts are always being dried by the sun? And as they undergo this process, the hair being dried becomes fine and reddish.

Problemata 932b:

Διὰ τί λουσάμενοι τῇ θαλάττῃ θᾶττον ξηραίνονται, βαρυτέρᾳ οὔσῃ τῶν ποτίμων;

Why does one dry more quickly after washing in the sea, although sea water is heavier than fresh?


.... OK, I stand humbled here. Modern Greek really does differentiate between something being dry of excess moisture (στεγνώνω), and something being dried stiff, dried of vital moisture (ξεραίνω); clothes and hair normally do the former, and if your hair is doing the latter, it is dry flaky hair; if your clothes do the latter, they have been burned stiff. But this is clearly a Modern innovation, and Modern Greek would never use ξεραίνω the way Pseudo-Aristotle did.

You guys are right about ξηραίνω applying to hair drying in Ancient Greek; but I hope you understand why I had to check; the one-line glosses in LSJ were not enough to rule out that the distinction between excess and vital moisture was older than Modern Greek.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:55 pm

With ξηραίνω included, LJS has a total of 18 forms! I like ὑποξηραίνω: dry up a little. :D
Anyway, your questioning is always very welcome!
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:39 pm

opoudjis wrote:77.2 αὐτο-κῑνούμενον οἰκ-ίδιον [ῑδ], τό, ὑπότροχ-ον οἰκ-ίδιον [ῑδ], τό. τροχόσπιτο in Modern Greek, "wheel-house" (σπίτι < Latin hospitium). I was going to suggest τρόχοικος, but X-οικος in Ancient Greek tends to be bahuvrihi, someone who lives in an X. Given ἁμάξοικος "wagon-dweller" in Strabo, maybe οἰκάμαξα? Cf. ἁρμάμαξα "covered wagon".


I'm actually replacing my choices with ἁρμάμαξα and οἰκάμαξα.

opoudjis wrote:78.35 ὀχημᾰτῐκὰ γράμματα, τά. I don't know what this is supposed to be, but Latin litterae tends to be something more document-like than γράμματα.


I'm going to keep γράμματα for documents:

2. papers, documents, Antipho 1.30, D.36.21, etc. (sg., D.Chr.65.14); τούτων τὰ γ. the documents to prove this, Lys.32.14; “τὰ γ. τῆς δίκης” Ar.Nu.772; τὰ δημόσια γ. the public records, Decr. ap. D.18.55; title-deeds, D.C.65.14; account of loans, D.49.59; “ἐπικαρπίαν ἐν γράμμασιν ἀποφέρειν” Pl. Lg.955d; contract or estimate, BCH46.323 (Teos); catalogue, X.Cyr.7.4.12: in sg., bond, Ev. Luc.16.7; note of hand, J.AJ18.6.3.


opoudjis wrote:86.9 ἐπιστολ-ικὸν περι-κάλυμμα [κᾰ], ατος, τό: didn't I say to get rid of φάκελος in the office context above? Here, you have. But in that case, why is envelope being listed in this dictionary twice?

There are indeed a few repeated entries.

opoudjis wrote:98.11 ἄνω τελεία, ἡ. You're clearly translating by function, not form.


Any suggestion? How do you call the semicolon in modern Greek when it means ... a semicolon?
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:17 am

> Any suggestion? How do you call the semicolon in modern Greek when it means ... a semicolon?

You anticipated the answer in your rendering of "?". It is of course λατινικὴ ἄνω τελεία.

See for example this post, bemoaning the fact that people are increasingly using Roman punctuation in Greek: https://www.verianet.gr/post/34148-o-th ... otimatikoy

> Φτωχή σε λέξεις; φτωχή σε περιεχόμενο; φτωχή σε πνεύμα.
> Ξαναδιαβάστε την τελευταία πρόταση της προηγούμενης παραγράφου –σωστά τώρα–, αφού το «φερόμενο» ελληνικό ερωτηματικό που είδατε και προσπεράσατε ήταν η λατινική άνω τελεία.

> Impoverished in vocabulary; impoverished in content; impoverished in spirit.
> Now re-read the last sentence of the previous paragraph, correctly, since what passed for a Greek interrogative, which you didn't notice, was the Latin semicolon.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:18 am

> οἰκάμαξα

I momentarily considered οἰχάμαξα; but... that would be just a tad excessive, wouldn't it?
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:11 pm

opoudjis wrote:> οἰκάμαξα

I momentarily considered οἰχάμαξα; but... that would be just a tad excessive, wouldn't it?

Only available if the license plate says Athens. :lol:

Thank you for everything. I'll be sending what I have so far by email.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:42 am

I'm doing a second pass through the dictionary with Bedwere, and I'm posting my findings here as documentation for users of the dictionary.

There are two useful dictionaries which provide Ancient Greek glosses alongside Modern Greek (and French), as part of the 19th century effort to undo Greek language change. The latter, which I already know about, is Skarlatos Vyzantios' dictionary, third edition (1874): https://books.google.com.au/books?id=j64OAAAAQAAJ. The former, which I didn't know about, is Theocharopoulos (1834): https://books.google.com.au/books?id=uVBQAAAAcAAJ — which is a thematic dictionary: it's in fact something of a forerunner of this dictionary, although it's a little too early for "modem".

(It's also instructive for its earlier stage of Modern Greek: where the language now expresses "to button" as κουμπώνω < κομβίον, for example, Theocharopoulos has θηλυκώνω < θηλυκόν "feminine": it's the notion of buttons/buckles as insertion, that we see persisting in "male" and "female" connectors.

We've agreed to indicate in the dictionary which renderings are neologisms, which are Modern Greek, and which are earlier forms of Modern Greek (mostly Katharevousa).
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:03 am

2.10. μῆλον τοῦ Ἀδάμ is Modern Greek, but not Ancient nor (as far as I can tell) Mediaeval. λήκῠθος is Ancient.

2.13. It took me a very long time to work out (because the LSJ definition doesn't use the English word, and Skarlatos mispelled the citation), but the Ancient Greek for "hair parting" is λίσσωμα (LSJ: crown or spot on the head from which the hair sets in different ways), λίσσωσις (LSJ: setting of the hair from the crown of the head), both in Aristotle, History of Animals, 491b.

The Modern Greek, FWIW, is not χώρισμα but χωρίστρα < χωρίστρια; and Puristic Greek was happy to use the word from the 1890s on (including in archaeological journals).

3.5. χοληδόχος κύστις is the medically correct term for "gall bladder"; but the Tragedians, just like the Modern vernacular, are fine to refer to it by metonymy as χολή "gall".

3.14. σπονδυλική στήλη is Modern Puristic; the classical terms are νωτιαῖα ἄρθρα, νωτιαία ἄκανθα, and ῥᾰχις. (The true Demotic word is ραχοκοκκαλιά "back-bone".)

3.21. σπλάγχνα is innards (lung, heart, liver), not entrails. LSJ indicates that Aeschylus explicitly differentiated between the two. The word εὐσπλαγχνία "compassion" already tells you which side of the divide σπλάγχνα is on. The distinction persists in the modern language; entrails might be σπλάχνα, but they are not the default kind of σπλάχνα.

4.14. Analectris = shoulder-pad is a (possibly tenuous) link made in Lewis & Short http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... analectris (it’s not a shoulder-pad in the modern sense); and the variant reading of analectris, analemptris, is even more tenuous: the word as defined in LSJ is a “suspensory bandage”.

Modern Greek just calls shoulder pads "padding" (βάτα < Venetian ovata, Italian ovatta), which suggests to me (ὠμιαία) στοιβή.

5.6. "bathing drawers" do turn up in LSJ as ᾤα or (ᾤα) λουτρίς.

5.8. For "bathing suit", the best I could find was the 19th century λουτρο(ϋ)ποκάμισον.

5.9, 5.10. Modern Greek has the loan πυτζάμα for pyjamas, and νυχτικό for nightgowns.

The catch with Ancient Greek is of course that they slept naked under blankets, so “bed-clothes” in LSJ refers to blankets and not pyjamas—and an Ancient description would conflate the two.

Skarlatos’ dictionary suggests for nightclothes (habit de nuit) ἐγκοίμητρον, εὐναῖον, ἐνεύναι(νι)ον. Both ἐγκοίμητρον and ἐνεύναιον are attested, but both seem more blankets than nighties (in the modern sense). Ancient grammarians gloss χλαῖνα as ἐγκοίμητρον; a χλαῖνα is a cloak/blanket.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:28 pm

σὺ εἶ ὁ ἀνήρ :D

4.14 Removed μάλαγμα
2.10 added dagger for μῆλον τοῦ Ἀδάμ, τό
2.13 λίσσ-ωμα, ατος, τό and λίσσ-ωσις, εως, ἡ
3.5. added χολή
3.14. σπονδυλική στήλη has dagger and moved to third place
3.21. σπλάγχνα was removed
5.4 Now using ᾤα λουτρίς
5.6. Added λουτρο(ϋ)ποκάμισον.
5.9. ἐνεύν-αια, τά
5.10 ἐγκοιμ-ήτωρ χῐτών, ῶνος, ὁ
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:01 am

To be clear to both τᾶν Βεδούηρος and all others: we're already discussing these offline, but I'm passing on the main curiosities from our discussion to this thread, for future users of the Lexicon.

The dagger Bedwere refers to is our indication that a form is Modern Greek; a double dagger, that it is Mediaeval or Puristic; an asterisk, that it is a neologism. Users of the lexicon can use these as caveats.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:53 am

6.1. Bedwere had proposed for "button" σφαῖρᾰ, σφαίρ-ωμα, τρόχισκ-ος, corresponding to Latin globulus, buto. While LSJ cites ἐσφαιρωμένα ἀκόντια as spears with “buttons” at the point, this is clearly an archaic use of “button”, unrelated to clothing": the ancients simply didn’t have buttons as we now understand them, and we should be looking at either later Greek for “button", or the Ancient Greek for “buckle”.

The surviving vernacular word for button is κομβίον "knot". In the 19th century the word used was θηλυκωτήριον < θηλυκόω “to female = to insert a plug into something”; θηλύκιον meant “buttonhole". θηλυκωτήριον survives in contemporary Greek in the narrower sense of a clasp on female clothes.

I've also suggested ancient περόνη and ἔχμα, which correspond to "buckle".

6.2. The blog https://e-didaskalia.blogspot.com/2016/ ... t_326.html says that the initial rendering of zipper in the 1910s was τορμοσυνάπτης, “peg-linker”, though I have found no corroboration of this. The universal term now is the French loan φερμουάρ.

6.8. The dictionary distinguishes between neckties and cravats, but it uses an awkward paraphrase, pannus collaris. (The Latin Wikipedia does better: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focale.) The French gloss foulard corresponds to neckerchief. I find λαιμομάνδηλον in use in a few dictionaries from the early 19th century, including https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ME ... =PA396&dq=λαιμομάνδηλον&source=bl&ots=OAXtfb2EWu&sig=WOjzE1YaehtOpBq59IMmMLNKZc8&hl=el&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyyYqH2tDdAhXNAYgKHYOxCe0Q6AEwCHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=λαιμομάνδηλον&f=false where it renders follette. It is based on μανδήλη < Latin mantele.

6.9. The suggested χειρίδιον appears in LSJ to be a specialist medical glove, but it’s still a glove. Add χειρίς. Byzantine and Early Modern Greek used χειρόκτιον, χειρόρτιον < χείρ + ἀρτάριον “felt shoe”. Given that we have χειρίς, it is unnecessary to appeal to them.

6.13. The σκῐάδειον is a parasol, which is indeed an umbrella; but add the older Modern forms ἀλεξίβροχον, ἀλεξιβρόχιον.

6.16. For pince-nez, we will only have paraphrases (I can't find a Modern Greek name); I suggested δίοπτρα ἐπίρρινα.

6.18. In line with the rendering of button, I've suggested περόνη περιχερίδων; the “clasp, brooch” sense of περόνη is most appropriate here.

6.23. For earring add πλάστρα, τά, ἄρτημα, τό

6.25. I'm nervous with just “bag” for a backpack, though Modern Greek permits σακίδιον (it is an ancient diminutive, which allows its meaning to be specialised). Maybe allow Modern σάκος πλάτης as an option.

6.27. Gem is both πολυ-τελὴς λίθος and πολύτιμος λίθος; the former is more common in Hellenistic Greek, but the latter is also used. Only the latter is used in Modern Greek.

6.28. For bracelet, add περίχειρον, βραχιάλιον. (The latter survives in Modern Greek as βραχιόλι.)
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby opoudjis » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:59 am

7.1. ὑγιής is clearer for "healthy"; ὑγι-εινός is more "sanitary, hygienic".

7.4. The dictionary differentitates perfrictio "cold" and coryza "sniffles"; four of the six languages in the dictionary (including English) gloss them the same. Add to the latter κατάρρους (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catarrh: "The word "catarrh" was widely used in medicine since before the era of medical science, which explains why it has various senses and in older texts may be synonymous with, or vaguely indistinguishable from, common cold, nasopharyngitis, pharyngitis, rhinitis, or sinusitis.")

7.13. The Modern Greek for prescription is συνταγή (γιατρού).

7.16. The Modern Greek for measles is ἱλαρά, ἡ, as a euphemism (makes you look red, as if you are joyful). In fact, the Modern Greek has been re-archaised: the original vernacular from was ίλερη.
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Re: ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΝ

Postby bedwere » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:37 pm

Thank you, Nick! I stopped updating the posts, but the latest code version can be found on GitHub.
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