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zeta pronounce

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Postby Bert » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:57 am

1%homeless wrote:
You mean h to gh right?
yep
1%homeless wrote:There are tons of dialects in England.

You should try the Netherlands. Dialects galore.
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Postby Democritus » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:23 am

annis wrote:Since I last replied to this thread I have changed my mind, and I now favor the zd and only zd interpretation for zeta.


Does it really have to be one or the other exclusively? Perhaps both pronunciations were present, in the ancient world. Like "either" and "either". Maybe Greek speakers didn't even tend to notice the difference between the two. Just a speculation.

Reminds me of a famous quote, from the world of computer programming: :)

Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration.

--Stan Kelly-Bootle
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Postby annis » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:43 am

benissimus wrote:For example, the word [face=SPIonic]e#zomai[/face], root "sed-", I assumed an S had been added between the stem and the personal endings (for some reason...). This is the only example I can think of at the moment (I am a newbie as you know)... perhaps there is another explanation for this word?


I'd say it's a 3rd (or iota) class present, making the zeta from dy. Smyth sec.508 gives other examples.
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Postby nefercheprure » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:30 pm

benissimus wrote:...
For example, the word [face=SPIonic]e)/zomai[/face], root "sed-", I assumed an S had been added between the stem and the personal endings (for some reason...). This is the only example I can think of at the moment (I am a newbie as you know)... perhaps there is another explanation for this word?


This is IIRC explained by the use of reduplication. Similarly to *TITK- (TEK > TEK + TEK > TI + TEK > TI + TK > TITK > TIKT)

Thus SED + SED > SE + SED > SE + SD > SESD > [face=SPIonic]e(z-[/face]

Remember that sigma is pronounded voiced before voiced consonants (most commonly beta, delta, gamma, mu)
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Postby ThomasGR » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:17 am

It-s true that "s" before voiced consonants becomes (iat least n most cases) also voiced, and in some cases the previous or following consonant is ommited, but please do not pronounce it "zd" or "dz". It's an insult to the ears. Be sufficient speaking it "z".
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Postby ThomasGR » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:29 am

Bert wrote:If 500 years from now people notice that 'impossible' was often misspelled as 'imposhible', they would have a good indication that the double S probably was pronounced as sh.
We can see that in the misspelling of tough as touff or tuff.
We also have a good indication from the spelling that tough was probably pronounced differently in the past than it is now.

This maybe correct if we assume that both "s" and "sh" keep the present sounds and do not change. What happens if they change and (most probably) "sh" becomes "s" and we forget how "sh" sounded? That happened with gamma and beta, and to say now that gamma was "g" is totally wrong.
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Postby annis » Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:42 pm

ThomasGR wrote:It-s true that "s" before voiced consonants becomes (iat least n most cases) also voiced, and in some cases the previous or following consonant is ommited, but please do not pronounce it "zd" or "dz". It's an insult to the ears. Be sufficient speaking it "z".


No.

I can, with effort, read Chaucer in Middle English. If I want his verses to scan, however, I have to do all sorts of things my native English doesn't do. For example, "pierced" will have two syllables. If I don't make these concessions to the changes of just under a millennium, the verse is ruined.

I'm not going throw away a reasonably sound understanding of the Greek of 500 BC in order to satisfy the ears of a speaker of Greek in 2004 AD. Especially if taking that road ruins the meter of the Greek I'm most interested in.
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Postby ThomasGR » Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:32 pm

I can, with effort, read Chaucer in Middle English. If I want his verses to scan, however, I have to do all sorts of things my native English doesn't do. For example, "pierced" will have two syllables. If I don't make these concessions to the changes of just under a millennium, the verse is ruined.

Please, let me disagree one more time in this thread and ask you not to do this. We don't have sufficient data as to how English sounded in those days, and your try will be an insult to those poets. You'll probably speak "p" with modern English aspiration, though we don't know if they did have such and to what degree. To their ears your "p" will sound either as "p"+"h" or soft "b". Further they won't be able to hear your (modern English) "i" and will mistake as (theirs) "e". Next your "e" sounds too much simmilar to (a very short) "a" and makes things more difficult. (Someone may ask, which "a"? English has so many lol) Your "r" will be rolling or not? "c" is "k" or "s"? "K" with aspiration or without? (in other words will he hear a "k" or "g"?) What kind of "e'? And last which "d"? Stick in your modern Enlgish promunciation. Any other attempt is fruitless.








[/quote]
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Postby annis » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:05 pm

ThomasGR wrote:]We don't have sufficient data as to how English sounded in those days,


This depends on your definition of "sufficient." If by sufficient you mean perfect, then you're right. But that doesn't mean we know nothing. I don't see how it's controversial to try to use the best information we have, not in the expectation that it's perfect, but that it's better than nothing.

and your try will be an insult to those poets.


Trying to get closer to a poet's original words, however imperfectly, is an insult?! This makes no sense to me at all.

Any other attempt is fruitless.


No, it isn't. And I will continue to pronounce [face=spionic](/Hfaistoj[/face] hehhp'haistos, and to recommend that pronunciation to people curious about ancient pronunciation, not because I think it reflects perfectly how Homer said it, but because there's plenty of good evidence that it's a heck of a lot closer than, say, ifestos.

I don't understand why you're dismissing the use of all the scholarship that has gone into this question, even if you're not interested in using a reconstructed pronunciation yourself.
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Postby Bert » Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:11 pm

William, has your pronunciation changed along with your opinion how Zeta should be pronounced?
When I found out that Zeta was either zd or dz but certainly not z, I changed (with considerable effort) the way I pronounced it from z to dz.
I am not sure if I want to change again.
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Postby ThomasGR » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:11 pm

annis wrote:I don't understand why you're dismissing the use of all the scholarship that has gone into this question, even if you're not interested in using a reconstructed pronunciation yourself.

I don't dismiss the linguistic science and any attempt to reconstruct sounds, but the attempt to put this pronunciations in practice and trying to read whole sentences knowing at the same time that probably it is wrong from beginning. Simple, we don't have data to do this, and saying we may make this and that assumption and agree that "ζ" is "ζδ" is totally wrong. Especially if the same scholars also say that neighbor sounds have also a saying how a consonant should be spoken and a "ζ" is not always such. To what amountt his influence affects the sound? We will simple never know.
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Postby annis » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:06 pm

Following long-standing Textkit tradition, this debate has been reduced to an argument about epistemology! :lol:

ThomasGR wrote: Simple, we don't have data to do this,


This is simply untrue. There's all sorts of data, some of it referred to earlier in this thread. Granted, it's not ideal fieldwork data, but we can't just dismiss it.

and saying we may make this and that assumption and agree that "?" is "??" is totally wrong.


On the contrary. For the period of Greek I study (Homer and the archaic poets) "[face=spionic]z[/face]" as "z" is totally wrong, and I know this with at least as much confidence as I know that "[face=spionic]ci/foj[/face]" is sword.

I happen to know that both Bert and Benissimus are reading Homer, so I can either recommend a pronunciation that is known incorrect, or one that is possibly correct. I'm going to recommend the possibly correct version.
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Postby annis » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:09 pm

Bert wrote:William, has your pronunciation changed along with your opinion how Zeta should be pronounced?


Yes, but imperfectly. I learned Erasmian pronunciation first (dz), and it's taking a little time to overcome that.
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Postby cweb255 » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:12 pm

gh only became silent after the Normans ruled Anglia.

You know, zeta could be pronounce not as d+s or s+d, but s and d at the same time. Tongue between the teeth and s-aspirate. Could work. Note: in Latin, z is a double consonant too. Anyone try to figure out the Ancient Latin of it? Hint, there is no PIE reconstruction of 'z'. But the letter was borrowed from Phonoecian, the letter being ts/ds as in Moreh Tsaddik - Teacher of Righteousness in Hebrew.

The "sh" will probably be known for a while, it's tracable. Skirt, Scirt, Shirt.
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Postby ThomasGR » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:20 am

Well, this is exactly the way how Greeks pronounce "z", and it does not sound like "dz" or "zd".

Originally, Latin didn't have "z" in its alphabet and was later adopted from the Greek one, sometimes in the second or first century BC, together with K, X and Y, which were used only for words loaned from Greek.
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Postby ThomasGR » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:28 am

I happen to know that both Bert and Benissimus are reading Homer, so I can either recommend a pronunciation that is known incorrect, or one that is possibly correct. I'm going to recommend the possibly correct version.

This is for pure technical reasons impossible to do. All the scripts that we use today are re-written countless times, and every time they were refined and improve according to the tastes and phonology of those centuries, e.g how they spoke and wrote in their time. Especially if you happen to use all the acute and daseia signs etc. that are an invention of alexandrian "barbarian" grammarians, who in some cases probably didn't speak good Greek themselves. Therefore, how Homer did speak is impossible to find out, since no written text exist from his days, the few we have are some centuries later, and the versions we use today are even more later.
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Postby ThomasGR » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:29 am

Finally, the letter Z, as its frequent replacing of S before B, G, and D etc. shows 76, had a voiced s–sound like English s or z in "rose" and "zebra" respectively, not the Erasmian dz (ds) or zd (sd). The same is shown by the misspellings Seu=j (= Zeu=j, 340 B.C.); Busza&ntioi 77 instead of Buza&ntioi; e0peyh/fiszen and sunagwniszo&menoj instead of e0peyh/fizen and sunagwnizo&menoj 78. In Elis D was often substituted by Z 79. That this tendency occurred at Athens as well may be inferred from Plato, Cratylus, 418: "nu=n de\ a)nti\ ... tou= ... de/lta zh=ta (metastre/fousin)". That this pronunciation of z as z was classical is shown by )Azeioi/, )Azeih=j 80, and )Azzeioi/ 81, as well as by Buza&ntioi 82 and Buzza&ntioi 83. That the z in all these cases could not have been sounded as dz or zd is shown by the resultant sound of the words, which is impossible to pronounce: A-zd-zd-e-i-o-i and Bu-zd-zd-a-nti-o-i. No doubt the Greeks pronounced them as A(z)ziü (later A(z)zií) and Bü(z)zantiü (later By(z)zántii ) respectively 84.


http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html


E-u-a-o-i-o-I

The impossibility of pronouncing the diphthongs in diaeresis (i.e. each vowel distinctly) becomes obvious also from a word such as Eu0aoi=oi (see IGA 110, 2, early VIth c. B.C.). This word, which consists of seven vowels, pronounced in the Erasmian way, would give the comical sound: ‘E-u-a-o-i-o-i’ — as if it were an exercise in vowel mnemonics. Surely the correct pronunciation was between ‘Eva-ü-ü’ and ‘Eva-í-i’.
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Postby ThomasGR » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:41 am

And last I wonder if the Erasmic promunciation is of the 5th centuries, then why do you read Homer who lived some centuries prior using the Erasmic pronucniation? Did the language not change all those centuries? Do you than adopt another pronunciation when reading Plato, another when reading the Bible and even another one when reading the Church Fathers? I would become quite confused with so many ways to utter the same words :lol:
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Postby annis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:13 am

ThomasGR wrote:http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html


Oy. I have read this article before, and it is truly wretched. The author several times make fun of ideas without argumentation, and only shows himself ignorant of modern linguistcs.

The impossibility of pronouncing the diphthongs in diaeresis (i.e. each vowel distinctly) becomes obvious also from a word such as Eu0aoi=oi (see IGA 110, 2, early VIth c. B.C.). This word, which consists of seven vowels, pronounced in the Erasmian way, would give the comical sound: ‘E-u-a-o-i-o-i’ — as if it were an exercise in vowel mnemonics. Surely the correct pronunciation was between ‘Eva-ü-ü’ and ‘Eva-í-i’.


This is wishful thinking. Plenty of languages would have no difficulty with this. Just because it sounds comical to the author means nothing.

More:

Greek pronunciation cannot be determined by what is possible or acceptable in other languages.


Absurd. Such comparisons are the basis of all linguistics. Greek is not exempt.

Since accent as stress is integral to all speech, its existence in Greek must be as old as the language itself.


Again absurd. Plenty of languages don't have stress accent (Japanese, say).

However, the form of the circumflex only indicated that it was the result of the contraction of two vowels, one o0cuno&menon the other baruno&menon, but it had no rising and falling tone in pronunciation — an impossibility in actual speech,


More nonsense. As any speaker of a tone language can tell you (many dialects of Chinese, other Sino-tibetan languages, etc.)

When the Greeks in time came to use the monographs [face=spionic]Q, F, X[/face] in place of the digraphs, the Romans had no equivalents for these letters except for [face=spionic]F[/face], hence Latin F is usually transcribed with [face=spionic]F[/face]!


Only after A.D.i.

(1) Stress need not exclude pitch, and in fact no pitch is conceivable without stress. (2) All Indo-European languages are based on stress accent. In Swedish, for example, which is the most ‘musical’ of the Scandinavian languages, stress-accent is clear and important. If Greek were different in this respect, it would have been unique.


This is completely false. Several slavic and baltic languages had and still have pitch accent.

(4) If the accent was essentially musical, why was it then disregarded by meter, which chose its own syllables — often unaccented — to express the pitch?


Because ancient Greek meter is based on duration. But of course the author of this paper discards vowel length... because Modern Greek doesn't have it.

(6) Greek meter therefore must have been based on rhythm, which consisted in thesis (ictus) and arsis (fall) represented by the acute and the grave, the only proswdi/ai known in early times.


I trust the author has never read Pindar.

This paper basically proposes that ancient Greek experienced rapid variation in the a few centuries - 6th through 3rd about, it looks - and then never changed again. This would make it unique indeed.

I cannot take this paper seriously.
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Postby annis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:16 am

ThomasGR wrote:And last I wonder if the Erasmic promunciation is of the 5th centuries, then why do you read Homer who lived some centuries prior using the Erasmic pronucniation?


I do not use Erasmic. I use the work of Palmer, Allen, etc., as the basis for my pronunciation.

Do you than adopt another pronunciation when reading Plato, another when reading the Bible and even another one when reading the Church Fathers?


Well, I'm still working on Homer, Hesiod, and the archaic poets. I'll worry about the Koine - for which the modern Greek pronunciations make a good deal more sense - when I get to that point. :)
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Postby annis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:22 am

Here's a modern Greek talking about differences between classical period and Modern pronunciation - The Greek Alphabet. He has excellent descriptions of the evidence for the ancient pronunciations.
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Postby chad » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:04 am

Thanks for the link Will, that's an excellent article, I haven't seen it before. I've just read this thread now and I agree with Will 100% :)
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Postby cweb255 » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:06 am

ThomasGR wrote:Well, this is exactly the way how Greeks pronounce "z", and it does not sound like "dz" or "zd".

Originally, Latin didn't have "z" in its alphabet and was later adopted from the Greek one, sometimes in the second or first century BC, together with K, X and Y, which were used only for words loaned from Greek.


Actually Latin has a 'z' in it's earliest alphabet, as well as a K, but it was dropped and then later adopted again from Greek.
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Postby 1%homeless » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:30 pm

Here's a modern Greek talking...


Macedonia doesn't count! :lol: He says he is born in Macedonia. :wink: I've read this before. This is where I was first introduced to issues of philology in Greece and realized that I was a barbarian ...and that most of Europe agree more with each other (in terms of Greek philology) than with Greece for some reason.
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Postby yadfothgildloc » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:07 pm

So, is eta pronouced (xsampa) /e/ or /E:/? I was taught /e/ (and that it should be differentiated from epsilon-iota (/Ei/), but that page says it's a long epsilon.
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Postby annis » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:05 pm

yadfothgildloc wrote:So, is eta pronouced (xsampa) /e/ or /E:/? I was taught /e/ (and that it should be differentiated from epsilon-iota (/Ei/), but that page says it's a long epsilon.


Yay, XSAMPA!

epsilon: /e/
epsilon iota: /ej/ or /e:/ depending on origin; merged to /e:/ BC.v.
eta: /E:/
omicron: /o/
omega: /O:/

I've mostly corrected by O series, but I still tend to epsilon /E/, eta /e:/ when I'm not paying close attention.
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:21 am

http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harr ... etapro.htm

The above link that is mentioned says that after the fourth century BC zeta is pronounce as “z”.

However, at some time in the 4th century BCE the change to the modern Greek pronunciation of z as [z] was already taking place. Aristotle (Metaphysics, 993a) writes that whereas some people would analyze z into s+d, others consider it as a separate sound which does not consist of already recognized elements. At the same time there starts to be some confusion between z and s in Greek inscriptions (e.g., anabazmous instead of anabasmous, 329 BCE).
Further evidence for a later continuous (fricative) pronunciation of z ([z]) comes from ancient Greek grammarians (e.g., Dionysius Thrax), who divide consonants into two primary categories: the aphona (beta, gamma, delta, kappa, pi, tau, theta, phi, and chi), and the hemiphona (zeta, ksi, psi, lambda, mu, nu, rho, sigma). In Aristotle's Poetics (1456b) the aphona are described as "having contact" (= "meta prosboles"), but not being pronounceable without a vowel. In modern parlance we would say that aphona are the plosives, pronounced instantaneously, while hemiphona (of which zeta is a member) are fricatives, and those other consonants that can be pronounced continuously, without the need for a following vowel. This agrees with a pronunciation of z as [z].




Ancient Persian names that contain the consonants [zd] are transliterated in Greek through z. For example, in Plato we have Oromazes (Ωρομάζης) for Persian Auramazda; and in Xenophon we find Artaozos (Αρτάοζος; in Herodotus: Artavazos) for Artavazda. The Hebrew name Ašdod, we find it in Herodotus as Azotos (Άζωτος).

Ancient Greeks were never keen to render the sounds of foreign words correctly, but rather to improve them and make more easier for a Greek to pronounce, in other words to “hellenise”. Therefore this evidence does not count. According to that tradition we have
Phraortes for (Persian) Kshatrita (not even close),
Cyaxares for Uwakshatra (!),
Astyages for Ishtumegu (!),
Cyrus for Kurush,
Cambyses for Kambujiya,
Darius for Darayavahush,
Xerxes for Xshayarsha,
Artaxerxes for Artaxshassa
Arses for Arsha
Hystaspis for Vishtaspa (!).
For Xerxes we have in the Bible Ahasuerus (in the Greek transcription). Also to mention here Jesus for Joshuah, Maria for Myriam and all the biblical names.

Getting back to our “evidence”, the Hebrew word Ašdod to a Greek sounded to much barbaric, and has to be improved to Azotos (zeta as “z”!). This tradition is followed even today, where Shakespeare becomes Sekspirios (used till the 19th century, though today they pronounce it in the English way) and Hegel becomes Egelios.
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Postby mingshey » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:29 am

ThomasGR wrote:Ancient Greeks were never keen to render the sounds of foreign words correctly, but rather to improve them and make more easier for a Greek to pronounce, in other words to “hellenise”. Therefore this evidence does not count. According to that tradition we have
Phraortes for (Persian) Kshatrita (not even close),
Cyaxares for Uwakshatra (!),
Astyages for Ishtumegu (!),
Cyrus for Kurush,
Cambyses for Kambujiya,
Darius for Darayavahush,
Xerxes for Xshayarsha,
Artaxerxes for Artaxshassa
Arses for Arsha
Hystaspis for Vishtaspa (!).

...

I was always curious when I saw the name Cyrus appears everywhere in Greek primers, what Persian name was like that, that is, sounded like Greek. Now I see.

In your sense of Greek, can you shed me a light how the name of master Zhuangtsu should be transliterated in Greek, especially ancient?

(I guess modern Greek could embrace the sounds like dz or ts, though.)
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:35 am

In your sense of Greek, can you shed me a light how the name of master Zhuangtsu should be transliterated in Greek, especially ancient?

It depends very much on the person who hears this word for the first time and how he is able to render the sounds, if he was a young person or an older one (who perhaps is a little deaf, btw). If we follow the example “Astyages for Ishtumegu”, it could sound like Zyages, or another example is (written in Greek) Ζυάγχης (almost Zuangkhes), or Zuanses, or even place an eta before and make it Ezyges. One thing we may be sure, it has to end in –es or –os and must not have too many consonants followed one the other. We have also the case of the Chinese name Kong Tzu that is rendered as Confucius. This continues in the Latin tradition where we have Avicenna, for (the Persian name) Abu Ali Husain ebn Abdallah Ebn-e Sina. It does not necessarily need to sound close to the original name :)
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Postby chad » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:47 pm

hi thomas, thanks for the link :)

http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/zetapro.htm

The above link that is mentioned says that after the fourth century BC zeta is pronounce as “z”.


the last paragraph is a bit weird though: it implies that dionysius thrax says that zeta is a fricative (because he called it a hemiphonon or something), but in the 2nd paragraph it quotes dionysius thrax saying that zeta is sigma + delta. back to the last paragraph, the author's inference that dionysius thrax said that zeta is a fricative because:

he called it a hemiphonon, and
aristotle says that an aphonon can't be pronounced without a vowel,

doesn't follow, at least at a first glance. i'll still keep my pronunciation of zeta as z + d (sigma is z before b g d m), which i pronounce as 1 sound, not 2, just like other weird combinations e.g. pi + tau as 1 sound, because that's how the greeks syllabified them (rather than splitting them over syllables). cheers :)
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Postby yadfothgildloc » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:20 pm

X-SAMPA rocks.

The pronounciations of Epsilon and Eta are reverse what I was taught? weird.

I was taught omicron and Omega right though.
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Postby Adelheid » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:34 pm

I can't figure out what that xsampa pronucniation is. But I am curious now about the pronunciation of the eta and the epsilon, since it appears to be contrary to what you expected.
Can you give an example of that pronunciation of /E:/ ena /e/, and /e:/? I've searched the net, but can't find anything useful yet.

Regards,
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Postby ThomasGR » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:12 am

Neither can I figure out waht x-sampa is, but about the rest you should listen to the file http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/Greek.htm to get the answer. It's the worst pronunciation one can imagine. Homer will really turn upside down in his grave. Epsilon is pronounced as a long "i" eta is a prolonged "e", and Epsilon iota (ει) becomes a very long "i" folowwed by another (long) "i". "au" (αυ) is "a" followed by a very long "u" that is even stressed, though it should'nt be stressed and should be a very short. And hows zeta pronounced? It's the most ugly sound you can imagine. It's a "z" followed by a stressed "D", like trying to say "zDDDDe". Please for God's sake, do not use this sound!!!!!!! :)
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Postby Adelheid » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:09 pm

I understand what xsampa is, just can't figure out the exactt pronunciation. Still curious about that epsilon and eta!

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Postby ThomasGR » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:15 pm

Well, I do not and still remain in complete darkness.
So, what's a x-sampa? An American jargon slogan?
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Postby annis » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:21 pm

XSAMPA is an extension to SAMPA, a way to code the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet), which uses many special characters, in plain ASCII.

It is a convenient way to talk more precisely about phonetics when not everyone in the conversation has a full UNICODE font.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby ThomasGR » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:26 pm

I see. Thanks for the information.
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Postby yadfothgildloc » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:38 pm

check out the wikipedia entry on X-SAMPA also. it's pretty useful as a reference.
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