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Audio?

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Audio?

Postby Michelle93 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:22 pm

Hi, I am new to the list. I am a homeschooling mom and have downloaded the two beginning latin books. I am preparing to use the D'Ooge book with my 10 yo and since I am unfamiliar with latin myself I am a little worried about correct pronounciation. The book itself suggests hearing it, but do you all just learn by sounding out???? I am not having success in finding any audio for pronounciation aside from buying other programs. I did a search of this list and so far only came up with to web sites that did not pronounce well. My daughter most likely will not go on to be a latin scholar, yet you never know, but I feel that all we learn should be done well and proper. Any suggestions? And if it needs to be bought is there anything inexpensive that is really good and not include a text book?
Thanks, Michelle
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Postby edonnelly » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:45 pm

I haven't heard these recordings, but I have heard of them. The site is bestlatin.net and the woman who runs it has some downloadable audio for sale (from $4 - $10).

The reason it may be worth looking into is that she has all of the text posted free on her website, and she has free audio samples, so you can at least see if it might interest you.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby Amadeus » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:10 pm

This is a good link: http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/ Although sometimes you have to raise the volume to hear Nedeljkovic's soft voice. There's a (very) small section of Christian (ecclesiastical) latin. You might want to check that out, just to keep an open mind about how others (like me) pronounce latin.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby bellum paxque » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:21 pm

As Amadeus suggests, there are different ways to pronounce Latin.

There is the classical pronunciation, which is our best guess at the way the Romans actually spoke.

There is also the ecclesiastical pronunciation, which reflects the linguistic changes of 2,000 years and shows some significant differences from the classical method (especially in v, j, and c).

Here are some interesting thoughts on the pronunciation of Latin.

Here's a good comparison and explanation of the two styles of pronunciation.
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Postby bellum paxque » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:41 pm

There's also this discussion of the relative merits of the classical and ecclesiastical pronunciations.

David
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Postby Amadeus » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:59 pm

I should hasten to mention, however, that ecclesiastical latin varies slightly from country to country, that is, there is no set standard. In Mexico, for instance, the J in Julius Caesar, is pronounced like a double "i" (ee, in English); while in Italy, so I've heard, it is pronounced "g" like Giuseppe. When a "t" is followed by two vowels (e.g. gratia), some pronounce it like a soft "c", others like "ts". The v is pronounced "v" in some regions, in others as a germanic "w", etc.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:14 am

Greetings, Michelle!

One of my fondest hobbies has been the study of Latin pronunciation. Do you know Skype? If you have it, I can show you whenever you want all I know about Latin pronunciation.
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Postby bellum paxque » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:37 am

Care Luci,

I found an articlethat you are guaranteed not to like. I think you ought to read it, as it states just about the opposite of your position on pronunciation.

David

PS - Also, it's about 100 years old.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:03 am

I know it well, David, but thank you for pointing it out to me again. Horrid stuff ... totally idiotic ... no true sense of language at all ... sounds more like the ramblings of an engineer who repairs a picture frame with duct tape.
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Postby edonnelly » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:32 am

bellum paxque wrote:Care Luci,

I found an articlethat you are guaranteed not to like. I think you ought to read it, as it states just about the opposite of your position on pronunciation.


Thanks for sharing that link. I have a couple of Bennett's books, which I happen to like, and I repect his opinion. I do find the reasoning of this article a little hard to swallow, though. Basically he says we should abandon attempts at pronouncing latin "correctly," not because we don't know how to (the usual argument we seem to hear), but rather because it is too difficult. It sounds like Bennett may have been well ahead of his time when it comes to "dumbing down" our school curriculum.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby cantator » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:53 am

bellum paxque wrote:I found an articlethat you are guaranteed not to like. I think you ought to read it, as it states just about the opposite of your position on pronunciation.


I just read the article, thanks for the link. Yes, it's pretty dreadful, particularly to those of us with a taste for quantitative meter. While he does raise some interesting points I must agree with the assessment that his approach is essentially a "dumbing down" of the matter. It's weird, Bennett obviously knows his stuff, but his conclusions head off in a strange direction. It's as though he said that since most students are so bad at Latin pronunciation let's allow them to decide how it's spoken.

Me, I've looked at the various guides to the phonology and listened to various readings, and my own reading is based on the "classical" pronunciation. I'll post some audio files soon, I'm curious to know how the Textkittens will react. :)
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Postby bellum paxque » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:11 pm

cantator, edonnelly, Luci., et. al:

glad you liked the article! cantator, I'm looking forward to hearing your audio files. (Or would it be "listening forward"? ;))

David
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Postby Amadeus » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:43 pm

Salve, bellumpaxque! I thank you for that link; I hadn't seen it before. It has a lot of good articles, especially one from Mortimer J. Adler "How to read a book", which everybody should read.

Spero ut valetudinem tuam in Korea cures diligenter!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Interaxus » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:17 am

BP&,

I too thank you for the link to the Bennett article. Great read! Even though I totally disagree with his conclusions.

It’s a mite more than fun to read the passionate struggle of a sincere soul to revise his own earlier revisions and expose the hypocricy of the current politically correct thinkers. After years of misplaced faith in an unworkable system, B. feels he has to speak out. The time has come to own up to his own implication in the dismal failure of the Dream Project that has brought misery to thousands and achieved nothing - and to put a stop to it.

Almost like a political utopian facing the void after the Fall of the Wall or the supporter of a Good Cause finally realizing that violence only engenders more of the same.

Of course, Prof. Bennett 100 years ago wasn’t to know what we know today:

1) that Latin itself as a school subject was doomed to virtual extinction;
2) that a globalized world of mass tourism would make foreign language learning an eBay commodity – and English pronunciation would no longer be of any help;
3) that oral skills would become the prime indicator of competence in all language learning.
4) that a fancied commitment to ‘historical authenticity’ would become even more firmly entrenched in Western culture.
5) that England and Germany would soon join the Roman Pronunciation Club too.

Etc, etc

Moral of the tale: having the courage of one’s convictions is an admirable feature of humankind but doesn’t prevent one from being wrong.

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Postby cantator » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:50 pm

bellum paxque wrote:cantator, I'm looking forward to hearing your audio files. (Or would it be "listening forward"? ;))


Here ya go:

http://linux-sound.org/latin-audio-examples

Consider them first attempts that I may or may not eventually get around to improving. :)
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:35 pm

Grand, cantator! I love your pronunciation; very clean and thoughtful. The only thing that felt a little English was the 'au' — I'm used to pronouncing this with a stronger 'u' at the end, but that's unbelievably minor. Your enthusiasm is not to be curbed! You deserve to be imitated.
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Postby Amadeus » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:39 pm

Cantator,

Wow! Great voice! I wish I had a deep voice instead of this kiddy-nerd one I have right now. :x Or did you alter these recordings with a sound mixer (apart from the obvious echo)? Anyway, kudos, mi amice, your latin is very good. How long have you been studying the language?

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Interaxus » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:56 am

Cantator,

After an hour and a half, I finally got the .ogg files to speak to me (downloaded quendam (quamdam?) 'Audacity' software and a lame_enc.dll file). It was worth every gutta of sweat. Brill! Brill! Brill! More! More! More!

(...please...)

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Postby bellum paxque » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:01 am

Ah, fantastic - or, so I'm expecting, based on other reactions. I can't listen to them here at work, but I'll give them a figurative spin once I reach my home computer.

You've known the poems for 30 years? ...wow. I can't gaze that far into the future. I've been with Latin for two years only, and two years isn't enough time to do much with Horace (for instance).

I'll let you know my reaction as soon as I have it!

Best

David

PS - Interaxus (4th declension?), thanks for the thoughtful response to the article I linked to. Your reading was a little more sensitive than mine. All good readings draw out a moral, I think, and yours did so deftly.
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Postby cantator » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:44 pm

Thank you all for listening to my audio efforts, I'm glad you enjoyed them.

Some remarks and answers to some questions:

Amadeus: The voice is unaltered, except for the addition of the reverb you noticed. I have a modest home studio based around Linux audio software, and the recordings were made with some of my favorite apps. Details can be found in my blog at http://www.linuxjournal.com (Confessions From Studio Dave). I've been studying Latin more or less intensely since I was in my early 20s, I'm 55 now. I've never taken a college course, but I did study privately for a while with Dr Richard Hebein at Bowlling Green State University (Ohio USA). After my initial studies I just kept at it. Btw, I learned metrics from Dr Hebein, but he is in no way responsible for my lapses. :)

Interaxus: More on the way. I'll be posting some Propertius and some Medieval poetry, hopefully later today. I'll post a notice when the files are on-line.

Lucus Eques: Thank you for your comments re: my pronunciation. It's heavily influenced by Italian (my favorite modern language, of course), but I try to read as naturally as possible. I'm especially interested in the phenomenon of accent and its effect on intonation, and I'm not at all sure I have the right of it. You have no idea how hard it is for me to avoid pronouncing "miser" as "meezer"... ;)

Again, my thanks for listening. I'll notify this thread when I update the readings page, please feel free to comment, and I'm always open to suggestions regarding pronunciation.
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more audio

Postby cantator » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:41 pm

I added poems from Propertius, Horace, and the Carmina Burana to this page :

http://linux-sound.org/latin-audio-examples

I hope you enjoy them. Alas, that will have to be all I can do for a while, other work presses me, but I'll notify the forum when anything new goes on the page. I do plan to record the Copa Surisca as soon as I can make the time, some Ovid would be nice too (e.g. Niobe's lament and demise), and I might take a swing at Catullus 63.
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Postby Michelle93 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:15 pm

Thanks to all the replies, I have learned much although I haven't had a chance to really read and listen in depth to everything since I have been trying to prepare for a spontaneous hiking trip. It appears from all said in these replies that learning latin is going to be a lot more fun than I expected. Can't wait to delve deeper, my daughter and I together!!!! Thanks again for the help. Michelle
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Postby bellum paxque » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:18 am

Ah, fantastic! At first listen, I'm really impressed with your recordings. Of course, I don't really know enough about the pronunciation of Latin to judge them with much accuracy, but they certainly sound fantastic. I was especially pleased by the version of fons Bandusiae, perhaps mainly because I've spent some time with it and haven't read the Catullus poems before.

If anyone has trouble with the format of the files that cantator offers, I have converted them to mp3s. I'd be glad to post the links to those files here--provided, of course, that cantator allows me to.

I look forward to hearing more!

David
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Postby cantator » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:40 am

bellum paxque wrote:... I was especially pleased by the version of fons Bandusiae, perhaps mainly because I've spent some time with it and haven't read the Catullus poems before.


I'm glad you liked it, it's one of my favorite poems. Recently I read a comment by a scholar who stated that Horace wasn't an especially sonorous Latin poet. I disagree, and I'm pleased to note that such a poet as Basil Bunting thought very highly of the sonic beauties in "O fons Bandusiae".

bellum paxque wrote: If anyone has trouble with the format of the files that cantator offers, I have converted them to mp3s. I'd be glad to post the links to those files here--provided, of course, that cantator allows me to.


Please feel free to do whatever you like with those files. I'll add a notice to the page indicating that there will be no copyright or licensing for the readings. Anyway, I think the copyright on those pieces expired some time before the Middle Ages. :)

I would have posted MP3s too but I'm pushing my bandwidth as it is.

I look forward to hearing more!


I'm going to make some time to add a few more pieces, hopefully I'll have some on-line by Monday.

Thanks for listening ! :)
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Postby bellum paxque » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:40 am

Thanks for your permission, cantator!

For those interested in accessing the Catullus and Horace poems in mp3 format, you can use the following links:

Horace 3.13
Catullus 51
Catullus 76

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Postby Amadeus » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:50 pm

Amadeus sodalibus s.d.p.,

You know what, I would really like to hear someone record a bit of latin prose. Up until now I haven't been able to read latin prose without sounding like a second grader --too damn slow. The problem, I think, is those crazy macrons; they shouldn't be pronounced twice as long, just long. Have you ever seen an Italian movie? Man, those folks just talk, talk, talk really fast (*cough*8 1/2 Fellini*cough*). I imagine that Romans were the same. In poetry, the reading is simpler because you can take all the time you want and because it's almost musical (who can't remember a tune? Dum-dee-dee-dum...). So, anyone up to the challenge?

Valete!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Agrippa » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:28 am

Amadeus wrote:Amadeus sodalibus s.d.p.,

You know what, I would really like to hear someone record a bit of latin prose. Up until now I haven't been able to read latin prose without sounding like a second grader --too damn slow. The problem, I think, is those crazy macrons; they shouldn't be pronounced twice as long, just long. Have you ever seen an Italian movie? Man, those folks just talk, talk, talk really fast (*cough*8 1/2 Fellini*cough*). I imagine that Romans were the same. In poetry, the reading is simpler because you can take all the time you want and because it's almost musical (who can't remember a tune? Dum-dee-dee-dum...). So, anyone up to the challenge?

Valete!


That's a bad example though because even when talking at full steam Italians usually hold their long syllables for more than twice as long as the short ones, or at least it sounds that way to me. Like, if you say "Sto parlando", the "-and-" sounds more than twice as long as the previous syllable, or for a more vulgar example, the word "cazzo," which is like three-fourths caz- and one fourth -zo. I know exactly what you mean though, and I can't read Latin prose without it sounding weird, though poetry works fine.

Y señor, usted tiene una cita de mi favorita obra de teatro, y creo que únicamente Shakespeare ha visto la verdad como Calderón. También me gusta 8 1/2 y Fellini entonces tenemos gustos semejantes.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:21 am

Very true, Agrippa; well put.

And yes, Amadeus, I am up to the challenge. :-D I owe you a Latin recording from months back anyway; I'm sorry I've been so busy. Name the work and the passage.
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Postby Amadeus » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:16 pm

Amadeus Agrippae salutem dicit,

Agrippa wrote:That's a bad example


:twisted:

though because even when talking at full steam Italians usually hold their long syllables for more than twice as long as the short ones, or at least it sounds that way to me.


Well, I guess the thing I find difficult is measuring how long is "twice as long" (that's why I dropped out of the school band :oops: ). So, for me, I think I'm gonna stick with macrons being "long" instead of "twice or 3/4 long".

I know exactly what you mean though, and I can't read Latin prose without it sounding weird, though poetry works fine.


Yayy! I'm not the only one! Image

Y señor, usted tiene una cita de mi favorita obra de teatro, y creo que únicamente Shakespeare ha visto la verdad como Calderón. También me gusta 8 1/2 y Fellini entonces tenemos gustos semejantes.


Gracias, Agrippa. La verdad, solo recientemente empecé a leer literatura (bueno en la preparatoria también leí, pero luego me dediqué más a periódicos que a libros), y no conozco mucho de Calderón, pero, ah, como me encantó esa fracesita: sí la vida es como un sueño, aunque a veces un sueño pesado como se ve en 8 1/2, una de las mejores películas de todos los tiempos, en mi opinión.

Bene, cura ut valeas!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Amadeus » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:26 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:And yes, Amadeus, I am up to the challenge. :-D I owe you a Latin recording from months back anyway; I'm sorry I've been so busy. Name the work and the passage.


Thanks, Luke! How about something simple, and preferably something where everyone can see the macrons. How about J.B. Greenough's Second Year Latin - Part 1 - Selections of Easy Latin (which can be downloaded from Textkit [I don't know if anyone has heard of this site :) ]). You can choose any text you like.

Cura ut valeas, amice!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:47 pm

Are you sure about that, Amadeus? A lot of it feels really artificial to me. What about some originals? There is of course http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ — if you pick a passage, I'll write in the macrons myself.
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Postby Amadeus » Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:04 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Are you sure about that, Amadeus? A lot of it feels really artificial to me. What about some originals? There is of course http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ — if you pick a passage, I'll write in the macrons myself.


Well, ok. But the macroned :?: text must be available to everyone. Try Iuli Caesaris Commentariorum De Bello Gallico, Liber primus, 1-3, more or less, as you wish, but enough to get a feel of how latin prose should sound like.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:48 am

Okay great. As for velocity, like I were reading it to a family member in the room, or to a large audience? I know you mentioned the speed of Italian.
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Postby Merlinus » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:31 pm

Excellent, Cantator ! :D Thanks for those readings !
I'd love to read and speak Latin properly. I'm looking forward to other audio links, and especially prose reading.

Hearing Latin is definitly a great pleasure !
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Postby Amadeus » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:19 pm

The speed should be colloquial, like if you were reading to someone you know. For large audiences we would go back to poetry speed, which we have already heard several times.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:33 pm

Alrighty, great; I'll get on that.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:23 am

All right, I'm done; now where can I upload it? Hu was asking this quaestion earlier.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:59 am

This is the second time a thread has died after someone has sought decent upload space for audio files -- Hu's was the first, in the Open Forum. What gives? There must be someone with inside knowledge on this.
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Postby cantator » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:12 am

Lucus Eques wrote:This is the second time a thread has died after someone has sought decent upload space for audio files -- Hu's was the first, in the Open Forum. What gives? There must be someone with inside knowledge on this.


I searched Google for "free audio file web host" and found these links :

http://www.free-webhosts.com/free-file-hosting.php

http://www.lights.com/pickalink/freestorage/
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Postby Lucus Eques » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:37 pm

Not a single one of all of those has worked; I've tried all of them.
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