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Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

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Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Bert » Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:23 pm

Line 4 of paragraph 102 of Pharr reads [face=SPIonic]gh=raj e)/sxen i(erh=a[/face]<br />I know what the individual words mean (I think) but I can't seem to make a sentence out of it.<br />[face=SPIonic]gh=raj[/face]= nom. masc. sg. old age <br />[face=SPIonic]e)/sxen[/face] aorist active indicative 3 rd. sg. he had<br />[face=SPIonic]i(erh=a[/face] acc. masc sg. priest.<br />Old age had a priest. Does not make much sense.<br /><br />Line 5 [face=SPIonic]gh=raj ou)x i(/keto basilh=i )Atrei/dh, e)/qane de\ kakw=j e)ni\ oi)/kw| e)n )/Argei, ou(/neka to\n w)/leke Klutaim(n)h/strh.[/face]<br /><br />Old age did not reach the king, the son of Atreus...Is this a poetic way of saying that he did not get to be old?<br /><br />The king, the son of Atreus did not get to be an old man but he died a miserable death in his house in Argos, because Clytaemnestra, killed him. <br />One more question; What is the sense of the imperfect [face=SPIonic]w)/leke[/face], either she killed him or she didn't.( unless I should have translated it as- she was ruining him-, or something like that)<br />Thank you.
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Skylax » Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:12 pm

You must consider [face=SPIonic]gh=raj[/face] as a character. So "[face=SPIonic]gh=raj[/face] held the priest" (like in hands) : so, it is simply a way to say "he was old", as you realized it connection with your second quote. I don't know if it was "poetic" or if it was the usual way to consider things at the time. But the way of thinking is often very concrete, down-to-earth. Many notions are considered as physical beings, e.g. the "winged" words, seen as spears (or birds...). It was maybe a time when it was the "natural" way of thinking.<br /><br />About [face=SPIonic]w)/leke[/face] : shouldn't it be [face=SPIonic]w)/lese[/face] ? then it would be an aorist (imperfect would be [face=SPIonic]w)/llu[/face])
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Paul » Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:23 pm

Line 4:<br /><br />You're exactly right Bert. Literally, it is "Old age held a priest".<br />More figuratively, something like "possessed", "held fast", etc.<br /><br />Line 5:<br /><br />Right again, it is a poetic way of saying he'd never see old age.<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]w)/leke[/face] :<br /><br />A fair question. I am not certain why Pharr chose the imperfect here. My best guess would follow Smyth 1899 which says that the imperfect can be used to "explain, illustrate, offer reasons for an action, and to set forth accompanying and subordinate circumstances that explain or show the result of the main action". <br /><br />In our case, then, [face=SPIonic]w)/leke[/face] explains why old age never overtook the son of Atreus.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul<br />
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Bert » Sat Aug 02, 2003 10:15 pm

[quote author=Paul link=board=2;threadid=350;start=0#2558 date=1059855783]<br /> <br />I am not certain why Pharr chose the imperfect here. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Did Pharr choose the imperfect? What I am asking is, is there some uncertainty as to the exact word used by Homer?
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Skylax » Sun Aug 03, 2003 12:12 pm

ok, ok : [face=SPIonic]w)/leke[/face] is imperfect of o)le/kw. It is'nt [face=SPIonic]o)/llumi[/face].<br /><br />Here, the use of an imperfect can be explained by saying "Greek describes things, while Latin tells stories." There is a Greek tendency to present descriptions of situations (like a set of transparencies) : "... and here, you see Clytaemnestra as she was killing her husband..." Hense the use of imperfect (Latin would put perfects corresponding to Greek aorists).<br /><br />Clytaemnestra did kill Agamemnon, so the story goes.<br /><br />But this very sentence cannot be found in Homer's works.
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Paul » Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:05 pm

[quote author=Bert de Haan link=board=2;threadid=350;start=0#2561 date=1059862526]<br />Did Pharr choose the imperfect? What I am asking is, is there some uncertainty as to the exact word used by Homer?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Hmm...I'm missing something here. Aren't we discussing one of Pharr's practice sentences?<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Bert » Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:05 pm

Thank you.<br />My question about there being uncertainty concerning the word used in Homer was not a very bright one. I was translating one of Pharr's exercises, not Homers' Iliad.
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Re:Pharr para 102 line 4 & 5

Postby Paul » Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:16 pm

[quote author=Bert de Haan link=board=2;threadid=350;start=0#2584 date=1059926755]<br /> Thank you.<br />My question about there being uncertainty concerning the word used in Homer was not a very bright one. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Not at all Bert. It just shows that you're totally into it.<br /><br />Keep at it! ;)<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul
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