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Question from LL XXI

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Question from LL XXI

Postby Gregarius » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:56 pm

In the beginning of LL XXI, we have the phrase

"... et sanguis de naso eius fluit".

Ok, that makes sense. But later, we see the question:

"Sed cur sanguis de naso fluit Marco?"

I was surprised to see "Marco", not "Marci", genitive, as he's the owner of the nose in question. Also, the word order seems a little funny -- why did "Marco" slip past the verb?

The next sentence goes

"Sanguis ei de naso fluit",

so it seems that Marco is dative, like ei, so maybe this is something like dative of possession, but I thought that only worked with forms of esse?
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Re: Question from LL XXI

Postby adrianus » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:12 am

Corporis cum partibus, Gregari, dativus possessivus ut casus aptus est.
With parts of the body, possessive dative is fine, Gregarius.
Gregarius wrote:Also, the word order seems a little funny -- why did "Marco" slip past the verb?

For emphasis. The word Marcus is emphasized.
Emphasis causâ. Vim habet vocabulum Marci.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Question from LL XXI

Postby Gregarius » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:32 am

Thanks! I'd like to be able to figure this kind of thing out on my own -- what's a good reference for this information? I couldn't find any mention of body parts with Dative of Possession in my copy of A&G.
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Re: Question from LL XXI

Postby adrianus » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:26 am

I couldn't find a suitable reference. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm beginning to think that Latin doesn't possess such a dative for parts of the body, as some other languages do.

P.S. My first thought was "caput mihi dolet" ("my head's sore") but that's "dolet" taking a dative. But you do also have "Aliquid mihi in mentem venit" ("something occurred to me/came to my mind") but again the "venit" opens the door to a dative.

Frustrà locum aptum quaesivi. Erro forsit. In mentem venit notio tanquàm et latina lingua talem dativum possessivum pro corporis partibus non habeat, cum habeant quaedam aliae.

Post scriptum. Primò cogitavi hoc: "caput mihi dolet". Hîc autem "dolet" verbum dativum requirit. Similiter, "aliquid mihi in mentem venit" cogita,—etsi et aptus dativus pro verbo, scilicet "venit".


Note also A&G, §§376, 377.
Et nota in grammaticâ de A&G has sectiones, §§376, 377.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Question from LL XXI

Postby Gregarius » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:39 pm

Ah -- Dative of Reference, thank you very much. One tricky thing about LL is that it is easy to understand what is going on with just a casual reading, but it really requires close attention to learn these grammar points, which aren't always explicitly called out.
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