latin accent in golden age: pitch or stress?

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.
Post Reply
chad
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:55 am

latin accent in golden age: pitch or stress?

Post by chad »

hi guys,

i've read in several places that latin might have had a pitch accent rather than a stress accent in the golden age. varro talks about the "pitch" (altitudo) rather than the stress of the accent (De Lingua Latina, 210, 10-16, GS).

i know that later on, latin like greek definitely had a stress accent. but what's the evidence for the pronunciation of the accent as stress in the golden age?

i'd like to know because i've been experimenting with a pitch accent for the latin word accent in catullus, horace and virgil, and i'm hearing poetic "music" which i'm not sure is intentional or just imported in by me...

apparently Vendryes wrote a book about this issue, Recherches sur I'histoire et les effets de I'intensite initiale en latin (Paris, 1902)... has anyone looked at this?

cheers, chad. :)

User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact:

Post by benissimus »

Obviously, they would have used pitch for dramatic effect and in singing, but I don't know how likely it is that they spoke with it...
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

chad
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:55 am

Post by chad »

ok, but why assume that latin had a stress accent at that time? is there evidence for this, matching/refuting varro? i just haven't seen yet where this assumption comes from...

cheers benissimus, chad. :)

User avatar
1%homeless
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:21 am
Location: East Hollywood
Contact:

Post by 1%homeless »

Vox Latina:

“It is inconceivable that Latin should have developed a system of pitch accents that agreed in such minor detail with Greek, and we can only assume that the grammarians have slavishly misapplied the Greek system to the description of Latin...”

He doesn't really give much evidence. Maybe it seems so obvious to him that Latin didn't have pitch accent that he doesn't really have to give much evidence.

User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact:

Post by benissimus »

No, I am afraid that is not very convincing. What grammarians is he referring to who have applied the Greek accent to Latin?
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

User avatar
1%homeless
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:21 am
Location: East Hollywood
Contact:

Post by 1%homeless »

Um, he didn't refer to any grammarians in that statement, but I was just summing up his opinion about the pitch accent issue. In the previous sentence he did mention Pempeius and Prician, but he didn't implicitly connect them to that statement. I can't type out the entire chapter on accent, but he is aware of Varro and french scholars supporting the pitch accent argument. I shouldn't really have said he didn't provide a lot of evidence, but "concrete evidence". His arguments are very persuasive though. Don't you people have access to a good library? :-)

Ok... I just went and checked this other book by Sturtevant called "The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin."

It says:
"We must conclude that Latin accent was a pitch accent as well as a stress accent. We have no means of deciding which of the two elements was the stronger; quite possibly they were equally prominent."

Oooh boy... I think I will pretend to agree with Allen and stick with stress accent; one reason being that I wouldn't know where to begin to render pitch accent in Latin. You have fun Chad. :-) It's great that you're one of the few people that actually really care about the pronunciation details of Greek and Latin.

Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Post by Episcopus »

I do I do! I like reciting it lest I should be called to any sudden random bishoprication. (episcopare)

Post Reply