Scribo wrote:Sorry, I really wanted to do some prose but somehow there were powerpoint presentations and shiny e-mails and I got really confused and went along with it. :S
Plus consider it my giving tragedy a fourth chance, I hate tragedy...
jaihare wrote:We're still four:
Baker
Bob Manske
pster
jaihare
pster wrote:
Now I expect that as I get into it, it will come faster. And as I said, I am in it for the long haul, no matter what happens. No matter how slowly I go, I will be reading Th. every day. Even if I disappear from this site for a while. In a sense, it doesn't matter if we go at varying speeds. If someone has a grammar question, we can all ponder it. Either we know the answer, or it will prepare us for what is to come. What I hope is that we can enrich the thread with secondary materials relating to grammar and syntax, but also relating to the history itself--in other words, all things Thucydides.
Bob Manske wrote:I'm still interested in reading but...
Pardon my ignorance. I haven't been part of textkit group before so, is there a special group I have to join, do I just send in a translation or comments or questions, and if so where do I post them? In other words, physically, how does this thing work? What's expected of me?
Bob
jaihare wrote:All we want, as far as I'm concerned, is to know that you're reading along and for you to submit questions and comments about the text here on the forum.
Baker wrote:jaihare wrote:All we want, as far as I'm concerned, is to know that you're reading along and for you to submit questions and comments about the text here on the forum.
I second that.
Eliot
I have an endless supply of grammar questions. I haven't posted any yet because I am feeling you guys out. But if you have any grammar questions, put them up! I'd rather work on your questions because you will be more interested in them and I have an endless supply anyway.
I was originally thinking in terms of quantity, but now I've gone way over to quality. I don't care when I finish, but I am interested in some level of mastery of Th.
Θουκυδίδης Ἀθηναῖος ξυνέγραψε τὸν πόλεμον τῶν Πελοποννησίων καὶ Ἀθηναίων, ὡς ἐπολέμησαν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου καὶ ἐλπίσας μέγαν τε ἔσεσθαι καὶ ἀξιολογώτατον τῶν προγεγενημένων, τεκμαιρόμενος ὅτι ἀκμάζοντές τε ᾖσαν ἐς αὐτὸν ἀμφότεροι παρασκευῇ τῇ πάσῃ καὶ τὸ ἄλλο Ἑλληνικὸν ὁρῶν ξυνιστάμενον πρὸς ἑκατέρους, τὸ μὲν εὐθύς, τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον.
Θουκυδίδης Ἀθηναῖος ξυνέγραψε τὸν πόλεμον τῶν Πελοποννησίων καὶ Ἀθηναίων, ὡς ἐπολέμησαν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου καὶ ἐλπίσας μέγαν τε ἔσεσθαι καὶ ἀξιολογώτατον τῶν προγεγενημένων, τεκμαιρόμενος ὅτι ἀκμάζοντές τε ᾖσαν ἐς αὐτὸν ἀμφότεροι παρασκευῇ τῇ πάσῃ καὶ τὸ ἄλλο Ἑλληνικὸν ὁρῶν ξυνιστάμενον πρὸς ἑκατέρους, τὸ μὲν εὐθύς, τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον.
I understand the underlined phrase to mean something like: having deemed [it] to be (fut. inf. of εἰμί) [the] great[est] and most noteworthy of the ones [wars] having happened before.
1. Why is ἔσεσθαι in the future? Why not εἶναι?
2. Does it matter that μέγαν isn't superlative here (cp. μέγιστος)? Does it still carry the superlative sense?
From LSJ:
c. pres. inf., deem, suppose that . ., Emp.11.2; ἐλπίζων εἶναι . . ὀλβιώτατος Hdt. 1.30; ἐλπίζων σιτοδείην τε εἶναι ἰσχυρὴν . . καὶ τὸν λεὼν τετρῦσθαι ib. 22; οἰκότα ἐλπίζων ib.27, cf. A.Th.76, Ch.187; βοῦν ἢ λέοντ' ἤλπιζες ἐντείνειν βρόχοις; E.Andr.720; ἐλπίζει δυνατὸς εἶναι ἄρχειν Pl.R. 573c; ὅστις ἐλπίζει θεοὺς . . χαίρειν ἀπαρχαῖς Trag.Adesp.118.2: sts. of future events, τίς ἂν ἤλπισεν ἁμαρτήσεσθαί τινα τῶν πολιτῶν τοιαύτην ἁμαρτίαν; Lys.31.27; οὐδὲν . . ποιήσειν ἐλπίζων D.4.7.
jaihare wrote:Actually, I was taking ἐλπίσας to mean "deemed" rather than "expected."
Baker wrote:jaihare wrote:Actually, I was taking ἐλπίσας to mean "deemed" rather than "expected."
Ah, my error, I didn't note "deemed". But your section from LSJ says "c. pres. inf.", whereas this is a future infinitive, addressed in section one of the entry: "freq. with a dependent clause in inf., hope to do, or hope or expect that..," followed by examples with the future infinitive.
Although Thucydides was writing about a war that had already occurred, his hoping/expecting is in direct relation to his first statement where he says he wrote the war as they warred against each other and not after it was completed. My question is why does he put ἐπολέμηςαν rather than ἐπολέμουv?
Eliot
Baker wrote:I think the phrase ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου refers to his writing and, therefore, it seems he started to write at the outset.
As for the ὡς clause, I take it to refer to the prior statement. The 1910 translation seems odd in many respects. For example, it seems to translate τεκμαιρόμενος as "This belief was not without its grounds." I don't know what to say about that!
Smyth (1944) helps with the aorist/imperfect question, I think. He says, "In subordinate clauses the action expressed by the aorist may be (a) contemporaneous, (b) antecedent, or (c) subsequent to that set forth by the main verb. The context alone decides in which sense the aorist is to be taken." He then gives a nice quote from Thucydides 1.138 which has the same sense as the one we are dealing with. So now my question is, after having used Smyth for a while now, did the man ever sleep?
Eliot
jaihare wrote:Do you think this ingressive/inceptive aspect is intended here?
I have managed to keep up with one page per day.
C.S. wrote:But how are we going to discuss this for mutual benefit if no one is "on the same page"?
I am willing to skip ahead for discussion, but there hasn't been much in the way of questions so far.
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:I have managed to keep up with one page per day.
But how are we going to discuss this for mutual benefit if no one is "on the same page"?
I am willing to skip ahead for discussion, but there hasn't been much in the way of questions so far.
pster wrote:...but I am happy to talk about a passage from Book 8. As far as grammar goes, I don't see how much it matters where we are. I do think we should all try to keep up with the thread also.
I was miffed though as I thought it contained the text to Bk. I. But it looks pretty good. He has lots and lots of Smyth numbers and thinks Smyth is great for Th. Maybe I'll buy a BCP tonight because I still want one self-contained volume;
Dracodon wrote:Cyrus Gordon says that if you take the trouble to understand and memorise the grammar and vocabulary in the first twenty pages of a book in another language, then you will be able to read the rest of the book with scarcely any need of a dictionary.
So I am thinking that towards the end of January I will go back and review the first twenty or so pages - and make sure I have committed to memory all the grammar and words new to me.
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