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Orberg Cap. XXXI

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Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby pmda » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:21 pm

Hae sunt sententiae quae sunt in capitulo xxxI de LLPSI:

1) In LLPSI Orberg scripsit hoc: Cum verbo 'esse' coniunctum gerundivum significat id quod fieri oportet;
is a quo aliquid fieri oportet apud gerundivum significatur dativo.

The 2nd clause of this explanation of the gerundive is not clear to me. I know it translates as something
like: He by whom anything needs to be done is with the gerundive in the dative case. BUT I'm not clear about the role of 'significatur'.


2) 'Octo dies iam sunt cum Romae non fui' - Nonne 'Romae' locativus est?


3) Iulius dicit: 'Quam ob rem nec ipse praesens nec absens per literas quidquam cognovi de eo quod nuper
Romae factum est.'

I'm not quite sure what Iulius is saying here. There's no question mark at the end of this sentence though
it feels like a question - Doesn't Quam ob rem = cur? Does 'ipse' refer to Iulius or his guests / others?

My best attempt at translation is: 'for what[ever?] whether I'm here or away I have [not?] found out
anything by letter that happened recently in Rome. Can anyone explain?


4) Orontes: "Opus non est epistulas expectare, nam facile aliquid novi per nuntios cognoscere potes."

Num 'novi' partitivus genetivus est?


5) "Cur Non servum aliquem Romam mittis?"

'aliquem' accusativus est. Estne masculinum aut femininum?


6) Cornelius: "Aliquid nomen Graecum, puto. 'Midas' fortasse, nec vero certus sum."

'vero' = sed?


7) In quadam urbe Asiae olim vivebat rex quidam avarus, nomine Midas...

....In a certain city of Asia long ago lived a certain greedy king, named Midas..., right?


8) "Tum Bacchus deus, qui ob quoddam beneficium regi bene volebat, "Dabo tibi" inquit "quidquid
optaveris".

Then the god Bacchus qho on account of some good [thing] wished to do [something] good for the king.(?)

I'm not clear if 'quoddam beneficium' is the reason why Bacchus wished to give a gift to the King.


9) "Dabo tibi inquit [Bacchus] "Quidquid optaveris."

Cur futurum perfectum et non praesens indicitivus / coniunctivus?


10) Is qui-, quae-, quod-dam etc.. a form of indefinite adjective..?


11) Statim Midas: "Ergo da mihi" inquit "potestatem quidquid tetigero in aurum mutandi."

Estne 'mutandi' gerundivum?


12) ...Aemilia quae fabulam ignorat, ab Oronte quaerit 'quamobrem id munus pessimum sit?" Cui Orontes
"Stulte id quaeris", inquit.

'cui Orontes' = ad Aemiliam? / ad id quod Aemilia dixit?

'.id quaeris', = id quod quaeris stultum est (?)


13) Gerund has no gender, only case and number, right?


14) Midas....fame et siti moriebatur, cum cibus quoque et potio, simul atque a rege tacta erat, aurum
fieret.'

'cum cibus quoque..' = dum cibus quoque (?)


15) Iulius dicit: "Posthac servo Graeco nulli confidam...'

Quid est 'nulli'? Cur non 'servo Graeco nullo' (dativus?)


16) Cornelius: "Etiam si adhuc Romae latet, difficile erit servum fugituvum in tanta urbe reperire."

'difficile' - neutrum est?


17) Cornelius: "Quantunm pecuniae dabis?" Cornelius: "Tantum quantum ille surripuit."

Nonne 'tantum' neutrum accusativum singularis?


18) Orontes: "Centum tantum sestertios?"

Nonne 'tantum' adverbus est. 'Only ten sestertii?'


19) Solo, vir sapens et iustus, qui Atheniensibus leges scripsit...

Cur 'Atheniensibus' (dat? / abl?) et non 'Athenae' aut 'Atheniensium'


20) Quia nemo Atheniensis umquam post hominum memoriam patrem suum occiderat, nec ille vir sapientissimus

arbitrabatur quemquam postea tam inhumanum scelus facturum esse.

I will ty to translate this: Because no Athenian had after human memory (in human memory) killed his own
father, nor did the wisest man think that any such (quemquam) inhuman crime would take place (facturum
esse).


21) At profecto aliud est patrem suum necare, longe aliud servum scelestum capite punire, illud enim
turpisimum scelus, hoc supplicium iustum est.

I will try to translate this: But certainly it is one thing to kill one's father, it is a different (longe
aliud) thing to execute a criminal servant, for the worst crime the severest punishment is just'


22) Olim ius eat patri familias non modo servos, sed etiam liberos suos interficere.

Nonne'patri' in 'patri familias' dativus possessivus.


23) Alii nunc sunt mores. Verum hominem liberum cruci figere non est mos Romanorum; id supplicium in
servos statutum est."

'cruci figere' 'cruci' dativus est?

'id supplicum in servos statutum est.' Does this mean 'the punishment is appropriate for slaves'?


24) Quod venus suadet iniuria non est!

Nonne 'Quod' neutrum nominativus est?


25) Cornelius: "Tacendum est, non bibendum!"....

Orberg says this indicates what is desirable / should be done generally (in this case). 'There sould be
silence, not drinking...' Are these gerundives in Neuter Nominative... (id) tacendum est...etc..?


26) Ian nimium bibisti.

Nonne 'nimium' neutrum accusativus est?


27) Censeo te unum tantum vini bibisse quantum nos omnes, vel potius alterum tantum!

Nonne 'tantum' 'quantum' et 'tantum!' Neutrum accusativum et 'vini' genetivus partitivus et 'tantum!'
adverbum est (= only)?


28) Oronts...ad Aemiliam versus: "Omnes m-me interpellant" inquit, "praeter t-te Aemilia. Tu t-tam
pulchera es quam Helena..."

'te' accusativus est. Cur non 'tu'..? It seems natural that it would be accusative but I can't figure out
the grammatical rule that would make it necessary that it be accusative.


29) Orontes iterum poculum tollens haec cantat: "Quisquis amat valeat! Pereat qui nescit amare! Bis tanto
pereat quisquis amare vetat!"

'haec' neutrum accusativus pluralis est?

'bis tanto' - ablativus? Cur?
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby adrianus » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:57 pm

1. "Scribitur dativo casu" seu "ponitur" seu "datur" dicere vult "significatur dativo".
= "is given/shown/put in the dative".
2. Ita est.
3. "On account of which,—my not being there nor [when] away through a letter,—I haven't been aware of anthing that's gone on recently in Rome."
4. Novi, in alquid novi, is a partitive genitive. // Partitivus genetivus quidem est novi.
5. Masculini generis est "aliquem".
6. "Verò" adverbium "verè" significat.
7. Rectè dicis.

8. I think it is the reason he does what he does. // Causa quidem est cur deus moveatur, puto.
9. Quod futuri temporis est "dabo".
10. Pronomen indefinitivum, cum "-dam" enclitico.
11. Gerundum non gerundivum.
12. Aemiliae inquit, "Aemilia, id stulte quaeris". Rarò dicitur rem inanimam ut quaestio stultam esse; immò stultè quaeritur.
13. Minimé. Gerundum neutrius generis est
.
Last edited by adrianus on Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby adrianus » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:02 pm

14. cum = quia vel quod
15. Dativus nullius adjectivi casus significatur "nulli" formâ.
16. Neutrum quidem.
17. Adverbium hîc est "tantúm".
18. Adverbium quod anglicè
"as much" vertitur.
19. Quod istas leges non possident Athenienses ante Solon eas eis scripsit.
Last edited by adrianus on Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby adrianus » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:49 am

20. Bonum id mihi videtur. "Nor did that very wise man imagine..."
21. "Longè aliud" = "very different". "...for the former is...the latter is..."
22. Possessivus non est, sed dativus simplex ("The right went to...").
23. Sic significatur sed modo ambagioso. "Decretum est" pro "statutum est" probe dicitur, nisi fallor.
24. Ita est. Nominativus casus.
25. Sunt.
26. Aut adjectivum aut adverbium. Nihil refert.
27. "Tantum" anglicè
"as/so much" significat quod hîc adjectivum est unâ cum quantum vocabulum.
28. Praeter takes the accusative.
Praeter praepositio accusativo casui servit.
29. "Haec" neutrius generis accusativo casu pluralis numeri, ut dicis. "Bis tanto" [eo qui nescit amare]..." = "By twice as much/over [as he who doesn't know how to love"]..."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby pmda » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:58 pm

Adrianus multas gratias tibi ago.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby pmda » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re 23.Lewis and short give: stature - to decree: ...With acc. (post-Aug.): remedium statuere, to prescribe a remedy against public abuses, Tac. A. 3, 28; 6, 4: Caesar ducentesimam (vectigalis) in posterum statuit, decreed that one half of one per cent. be the tax,

Not sure if this explains it. In fact I'm sure it doesn't explain it.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby adrianus » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:22 pm

"id supplicium in servos statutum est" vel "id supplicium in servos decretum est" = "that punishment is decreed/prescribed [in law] to/for slaves" (indirectly meaning // ambagioso modo significans "that punishment is appropriate for slaves").
"Magna fuit dominorum in servos potestas..." (http://www.archive.org/details/antiquit ... 01terpgoog in paginâ centesimâ undetricesimâ)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby pmda » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:21 pm

Ne servo quidem iniuriam facere oportet, sed necesse est servos infidos aut fugitivos severe punire, nec enim quidquam nisi poena severa eius generis servos a maleficiis deterrere atque in officio tenere potest.

Certainly an injustice should not be done to a slave, but it is necessary to punish dishonest or runaway slaves severely, nor therefore is any but severe punishment of servants of that type able to deter them from crime and so keep them at their work.

Look OK?
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby adrianus » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:49 pm

Mihi equidem, Paule, id bonum videtur.
To me at least it looks fine, Paul.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg Cap. XXXI

Postby pmda » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:24 pm

Gratias tibi ago, Adriane
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