"He introduces conjectures of his own and of other scholars, many of who lived before the nature of oral poetry began to be understood."
"That said, West's critical notes are very scrupulous and complete, so that you can always tell what is in the medieval manuscript tradition by digging in the apparatus. (Van Thiel's edition, which offers a text more along the lines I would prefer, with minimal editorial intervention, provides a stripped-down apparatus that doesn't give as much information about the evidence.) But you shouldn't have to dig in the apparatus to discover the actual evidence."
Ahab wrote:Rather off-topic to this thread, but I thought I'd go ahead and post this link: http://www.klincksieck.com/
Looks like a revised edition of Chantraine's Grammaire homérique is being published.
constant access drives, sponsoring the Classics in school, producing textbooks, summer courses and what not on one end, handing out fellowships and positions on the other...so..
Qimmik wrote:constant access drives, sponsoring the Classics in school, producing textbooks, summer courses and what not on one end, handing out fellowships and positions on the other...so..
You're referring to the Universities. It's their Presses that are the culprits. I'm sure it's is just economics, and the high prices aren't limited to Classics. I was being facetious.
But why is Lewis & Short, a book that was typeset 130 years ago, now priced at USD$250?
I'm American but my copy of one of the volumes of the OCT Homer series still has a sticker on it that reads Price 12/6.
many prominent scholars have found this passage suspicious.
there's a whole monograph on the Doloneia by someone of the Oralist school I think (Casey Dué I think)
Paul Derouda wrote:He calls the simile "a somewhat lurid rhapsodic interpolation, probably" in the Making of the Iliad. I don't have access now to his Studies book were he'll have a full treatment.
West wrote:Hentze pointed out that the simile was intended to illustrate the Myrmidons’ courage and eagerness for the fight, and that 160-3, where the description untypically moves on to a second scene and the purpose is lost sight of, might be an interpolation. Leaf adds that the lines contain several strange expressions, ‘and one cannot but feel a reluctant suspicon that the directeness of the Epic style would be better preserved by the excision of 158-64 altogether. We thus get rid of the ἡγήτορες ἠδε μέδοντες (164), so that it is the whole body (πάντας 156) which is compared to the herd of wolves, as it should be.’ So also, but more decidedly, Wilamowitz (1916), 125. The excision re-unites οἳ δέ in 156 with its verb ῥώοντο in 166.
I have bracketed 165 in addition. Patroclus’ preparations have been described separately (130-54), and he then, apart from 165, disappeares until 219. The Myrmidons are pictured rallying about their usual leader, Achilles (155, 166, 168, 198 ff.) Patroclus’ appearance beside Achilles in 165-6 is awkward. If 165 is removed together with 156-64 we get a perfectly seamless join:
..................................... οἳ δὲ λύκοι ὥς
ὠμοφάγοι, τοῖσίν τε περὶ φρεσὶν ἄσπετος ἀκή,
ῥώοντ’. ἐν δ’ ἄρα τοῖσιν ἀρήϊος ἵστατ’ Ἀχιλλεύς
ὀτρύνων ἵππους τε καὶ ἀνέρας ἀσπιδιώτας.
He's rewriting it to make it what he thinks is a better poem.
I would certainly want an editor to produce an "original" text of the Iliad if we could be assured that a specific individual created an original written text at a specific place and time, just as I would prefer to see a clean text of Thucydides shorn of interpolations, if that were possible.
It has been done. But it's not something anyone would want to use as a reading text. And what's the point, anyway?
jeidsath wrote:It's not possible, as you say, and the great problem is that so much work and erudition is wasted pretending that it is, by people who all know better. The pursuit of textual perfection is ubiquitous and the results are unfortunate.
One of the hardest things to pick my way through, as a new Greek learner, is the vast amount of pretension going on among academics. Who is C2 level in ancient Greek, able to pick up a book, or (let's imagine) follow a conversation? Who is following a mechanical translation method? And who can't do either, but rely on other people's work to sound erudite? Possession of a degree or teaching position is no use in differentiating them.
εὐαρίθμητοι γάρ τινές εἰσιν οἷοι πάντα τὰ Θουκυδίδου συμβαλεῖν, καὶ οὐδ᾽ οὗτοι χωρὶς ἐξηγήσεως γραμματικῆς ἔνια.
"The number of those who can understand all of Thucydides is very limited, and even they can't do it without resorting to grammatical commentary from time to time."