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reflexive partitive genitive; nostri or nostrum?

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reflexive partitive genitive; nostri or nostrum?

Postby 1%homeless » Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:44 pm

Part of ourselves. Pars nostri? ...or Pars nostrum?

If I were to use the first person plural reflexive in the partitive genitive sense would I use nostri or nostrum? I mean nostri is the reflexive form, but would one use the same form in the partive genitive case?
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Postby Magistra » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:12 pm

According to Allen & Greenough's section 295:

"b. The personal pronouns have two forms for the genitive plural, that in -um being used partitively (§ 346), and that in -í oftenest objectively (§ 348): -

* mâior vestrum, the elder of you.


* habétis ducem memorem vestrí, oblítum suí (Cat. iv. 19), you have a leader who thinks (is mindful) of you and forgets (is forgetful of) himself.


* pars nostrum, a part (i.e. some) of us."

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Postby 1%homeless » Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:29 am

* pars nostrum, a part (i.e. some) of us."


Yes, but the question remains, how do you translate "part of ourselves" into Latin? The reflexive form is nostri, but the case is the partitive genitive (i.e. nostrum). These forms are clashing each other and there has to be a way to reconcile them. Maybe add another pronoun?
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Postby Magistra » Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:53 pm

Yes, but the question remains, how do you translate "part of ourselves" into Latin?


pars nostrum

This is using the reflexive/personal pronoun nos in the genitive case to indicate a "part of a whole", i.e. partitive genitive.

If you're going for more emphasis you could add ipsorum:

pars nostrum ipsorum

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Postby 1%homeless » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:13 am

Thanks, that one was a doozy. The reason I was confused was because Wheelock only listed nostri/vestri in the reflexive pronouns list. There was no nostrum/vestrum. Since the whole personal pronouns are identical to the reflexive pronouns in the first and second persons, it probably is just implied and that we should know that a nostrum/vestrum exist for the reflexive pronouns. :-)

Maybe I should've used D'ooge? :)

Straight from D'ooge's book:

"281. The Reflexive Pronouns. The personal pronouns ego and tu may be used in the predicate as reflexives."

:lol:
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Postby Episcopus » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:32 pm

Yes and the se sui sibi se are special reflexives third person :)
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Postby benissimus » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:14 pm

My Wheelock did list all of the genitives, perhaps you have an old edition.
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Postby Moerus » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:09 pm

The personal and possesive pronouns make only a difference between reflexivity and non-reflexivity in the third person: suus / eius and sui / is, ea, id. In the first and second person we have only one form: noster and vester, meus and tuus, etc. can be used in a reflexive or non-reflexive way. So you can say pars nostrum or pars omnium nostrum.
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Postby 1%homeless » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:41 am

My Wheelock did list all of the genitives, perhaps you have an old edition.


Nope, I have the sixth edition. The reflexive pronouns list on page 83 doesn't have nostrum/vestrum.
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Postby Fay » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:10 am

1%homeless wrote:
My Wheelock did list all of the genitives, perhaps you have an old edition.


Nope, I have the sixth edition. The reflexive pronouns list on page 83 doesn't have nostrum/vestrum.


On pg. 68 of Wheelock both nostrum and nostri are listed. Since the personal pronouns for 1st person/2nd person remain the same for reflexive pronouns, the editors might had left nostrum out assuming we know both form of the genitive.

I remembered my magistra had said about something about one is used more frequently than the other....but I forgot which one. :?:
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Postby benissimus » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:41 am

Yeah, it's definitely on page 68. This isn't necessarily a reflexive concept, so I don't see why it would have to be reiterated in that chapter.
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Postby 1%homeless » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:50 am

the editors might had left nostrum out assuming we know both form of the genitive.


and I said...
Since the whole personal pronouns are identical to the reflexive pronouns in the first and second persons, it probably is just implied and that we should know that a nostrum/vestrum exist for the reflexive pronouns.

:D
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Postby 1%homeless » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:03 am

This isn't necessarily a reflexive concept, so I don't see why it would have to be reiterated in that chapter.


Yeah, but some of us beginners are slooooww... and we need reiteration. :) In my opinion, Wheelock should have either listed a complete reflexive list or explained it without a list like D'ooge.
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Re: reflexive partitive genitive; nostri or nostrum?

Postby mikhaw20 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:10 pm

So Wheelock gives nostri / vestri as reflexives, and (6th edition in a footnote, but 7th edition takes it out) lets you know that nostri / vestri is also appropriate for objective genitives (fear of us), but nostrum / vestrum are for partitive genitives (part of us).

So basically no problem if it's an objective; "We have fear of ourselves" = Habemus timorem nostri.

I guess the problem comes up when it's something like "We fear part of ourselves"?

Would that actually mean that we fear a physical part of ourselves in the sense of e.g. our demon-possessed hands, or would it mean it in the sense of we (Samantha, Bob, Mike, Rasputin, and Lucrezia Borgia) fear part (as in a section) of ourselves (Rasputin and Lucrezia Borgia)?

It seems like there must be a way to distinguish those two things, and I'd be interested in knowing if the distinction solves the original problem.
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