Wm away for a week

annis · Post by **annis** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:15 pm

Tomorrow I leave for darkest California, to that city known universally among my friends, regardless of sex or orientation, as Man Diego. There I will spend a week in the company of other Unix geeks and NT/Windows admins as we try to come up with ways to keep the intenet, or at least those portions for which we are responsible, working.

Spam is always an especial topic of discussion and venom at this annual conference, but I predict this year it will be even more popular if other people's spam intake is anything like mine.

A conference full of computer people necessarily entails a lot of hardware and networking, so I will have regular access to the web, but I doubt I'll have much time to chat here. My opinions on burning questions about Greek meter will therefore be tardier than usual.

I promise to speak like a normal person on my return.

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:52 am

Have fun at LISA ... remember to resurface to enjoy the sun, eat and drink well (Jolt cola doesn't count!), don't hack into anything you shouldn't

, and don't forget to send us a Greek postcard....

Emma_85 · Post by **Emma_85** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:02 am

I just took a look at your spam. Lol, you know, I get 100 spam mails each day and like 1 or 2 mails I do want

.
So go and kill those spammers for me, will you?

annis · Post by **annis** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:29 pm

mariek wrote:
Have fun at LISA ... remember to resurface to enjoy the sun, eat and drink well (Jolt cola doesn't count!), don't hack into anything you shouldn't , and don't forget to send us a Greek postcard....

Tea is my caffeine delivery mechanism of choice, not Jolt, nor any other bubbly syrup. I ate well twice, once at an Ethiopian place (The Red Sea Restaurant) and once at the Khyber Pass, amazing Afghan food, if a tad pricey. I recommend both to anyone going to the area.

Sorry I couldn't send out a Greek postcard. For the first part of the week it would only have said, "it's on fire!" I've never been in a rain of ash before. Various people called the conference "LISA Mordor" rather than "LISA San Diego." Fortunately for me the conference hotel was never in any danger, though one or two attendees who lived in the area had close calls for their homes, and in one case both home and business. Asthmatics had to be careful.

The hotel also provided a lesson by example on how not to set up a wireless network for 1,300 computer geeks.

Spam was indeed a popular topic of conversation, in the conference program and in the halls.

Emma_85 · Post by **Emma_85** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:45 pm

Uh, forest fire, another memory I would rather forget... but the moon was nice and red, eventhough we were all dead scared cause we were cut off from the rest of the world and there was smoke everywhere. Lol, life is fun...

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:13 pm

Welcome back, William! You managed to solve all the world's computer problems while you were gone, right? Now...how do I program my computer to make my morning coffee?

Glad you're back, and safe.

mingshey · Post by **mingshey** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:19 am

Welcome back, Frodo... Er, William!
I hope you threw the Emailer's Bane into the flame.

Sorry to hear that many lost their life or home by the fire.

Carola · Post by **Carola** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:39 am

Yes, those forest fires are scary - I almost ran into one once when a most of the hills around Adelaide were burnt out. You probably didn't know a Volvo could do the standing 1/4 mile in 3 seconds! It did that day! The air itself seemed to be on fire - very scary.

William, if you can get rid of spam I am going to start putting forward your name for a Nobel prize - 117 on my email the other day. Grrrrr!!!

annis · Post by **annis** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:17 pm

Carola wrote:William, if you can get rid of spam I am going to start putting forward your name for a Nobel prize - 117 on my email the other day. Grrrrr!!!

Alas, I have no really good answer. At the conference there was the usual talk of big sticks, but this simply brings home that the problem is social more than technical. Some have gone so far as to suggest that anyone spamming today in the face of so much opposition, using such devious techniques, and sending such horrid ads to anonymous people - some quite young - is probably a sociopath.

It should be added that every person that actually buys something because of spam they get prolongs our agony.

Having said that, if you do a web search on "bayesian filter" and whatever mail reader you use, you might find this technique helpful. It certainly makes my life better, if not perfect.

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:47 pm

I never buy anything from spam mails, and I only ever even open them to click on the "unsubscribe" link at the bottom...it's not perfect (I have to unsubscribe from each list or group or whatever about once every couple of months) but it does seem to keep spam down. In addition, I'm careful about where I put my email address, and I avoid "Yes-you-may-give-my-email-to-select-group" check boxes like the plague.

As I said, not perfect, but it keeps them down.

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:43 am

I don't know what it is that I am doing right, but I very seldom get e-mail from an unknown source. To me, spam is just a word. Something that happens to 'other people'.

Post by **klewlis** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:16 pm

Keesa wrote:I never buy anything from spam mails, and I only ever even open them to click on the "unsubscribe" link at the bottom...it's not perfect (I have to unsubscribe from each list or group or whatever about once every couple of months) but it does seem to keep spam down. In addition, I'm careful about where I put my email address, and I avoid "Yes-you-may-give-my-email-to-select-group" check boxes like the plague.

As I said, not perfect, but it keeps them down.

You're actually not supposed to click on the unsubscribe link. When you do, that tells them that your email address is still active, you got the mail and opened it, and they will continue to send to you and pass your address around. If you never answer them in any way, they eventually think your address is no longer active and they will stop sending it... that takes a loooong time because they are persistant. but my hotmail address, which is 8 years old and used to get TONS of spam, is finally starting to slow down a bit (yay!). not that i use it for anything anyway....

i get VERY little spam to any of my legit addresses because i use my hotmail address for anything questionable.... so it gets all the spam.

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:50 pm

I don't know...it seems to work for me. I really get comparatively little spam. I guess Yahoo! must just have really good spam protection or something.

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:11 pm

annis wrote: Tea is my caffeine delivery mechanism of choice, not Jolt, nor any other bubbly syrup.

I only mentioned Jolt because it was the drink of choice at DefCon (a gathering of, um, computer enthusiasts who are interested in computer security

, http://www.defcon.org/). I drink a lot of tea too, mostly green tea and white tea which is even better for you. (I sorta gave up coffee last November).

Good to hear you weren't in any danger while in SD.

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:51 pm

annis wrote: It should be added that every person that actually buys something because of spam they get prolongs our agony.

They're definitely wasting their time on me. It's pretty easy to recognize spam from the sender or subject so it gets automatically deleted without opening. I've never bought anything from spam messages. I can't imagine wanting anything they're trying to sell me.

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:12 am

Keesa wrote:and I only ever even open them to click on the "unsubscribe" link at the bottom.

Keesa, you shouldn't even waste time doing that. What you're really doing is shouting, "Hey! Over here! My email acct is active. Please send me MORE spam!"

I don't know if you have this where you are, but we have stands at shopping malls that try to harvest addresses from people. They're disguised as "win this car" or other similar gimmick. You are really signing up for junk mail and/or email spam. Some will even change your long distance provider without your knowledge. Isn't that fun?

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:19 am

klewlis wrote:but my hotmail address, which is 8 years old and used to get TONS of spam, is finally starting to slow down a bit (yay!).

I used to use Hotmail and thought they were the absolute worst. It got so bad that I couldn't even find the few legitimate messages in my Inbox because 99.9% of it was spam. I stopped using Hotmail and only logged in from time to time just to see how much spam I got. I have to admit that it has mellowed out over time.

bingley · Post by **bingley** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:17 am

Yes, my hotmail has quietened down a lot over the past 4 or 5 months. It used to be 40 or 50 spams a day, but now it's about that a week, which I can live with.

However, the amount of spam in my yahoo mail has started to go up. I used to get one or two in my inbox a week, and now it's 3 or 4 a day.

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:54 am

A good overview of anti-spam sites and how the spam-war is morphing into something more insidious.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/busin ... 9spam.html

May require (free) registration; if so, use:

username: jpltuser
password: jpltuser

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:56 am

bingley wrote:Yes, my hotmail has quietened down a lot over the past 4 or 5 months. It used to be 40 or 50 spams a day, but now it's about that a week, which I can live with.

However, the amount of spam in my yahoo mail has started to go up. I used to get one or two in my inbox a week, and now it's 3 or 4 a day.

Hey, now that you mention it... I think you're right! My Hotmail acct has received less spam than before. And my Yahoo is getting more; it just gets filtered into the Bulk Mail folder so it doesn't "bother" me as much.

Carola · Post by **Carola** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:31 am

I use my Yahoo email address when I sign up for anything because that way all the junk gets filtered. Unfortunately our other email address is on a web page as we need a contact and that address is getting swamped with spam. Our filter program has a list of "known spammers" which it uses as part of its filtering routine - if they keep updating the list why don't all the major carriers just routinely block mail from these people? It must being causing havoc with the data lines if everyone gets 50-100 unwanted emails every day (x millions of users). Our filter program "bounces" the spam so that doubles the number of emails and so on and so on. I'm not talking about the ISP you sign up with but the big carriers like Telstra in Australia and ATT (?) in USA. Perhaps they should start charging more for outgoing traffic rather than incoming - that would soon stop the spammers!

annis · Post by **annis** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:20 pm

Carola wrote: Perhaps they should start charging more for outgoing traffic rather than incoming - that would soon stop the spammers!

People are exploring this idea: charge a nominal fee for each single delivery out, say one single cent. For the majority of us that'd be noise in our normal ISP bill. For spammers or big bulk mailing companies it would not.

The problem with this, like all schemes, is that it requires universal application to be effective, somthing that isn't very likely.

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:00 pm

annis wrote:
People are exploring this idea: charge a nominal fee for each single delivery out, say one single cent. For the majority of us that'd be noise in our normal ISP bill. For spammers or big bulk mailing companies it would not.

It wouldn't be noise for me.

I use email for most of my correspondance these days because half the time I can't afford stamps. The last thing I need is a charge for my email.

Emma_85 · Post by **Emma_85** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:38 pm

I remember when we still had to...

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:32 pm

annis wrote:The problem with this, like all schemes, is that it requires universal application to be effective, somthing that isn't very likely.

Another thing I don't see likely to happen is internet shoppers being charged their local sales tax for purchases.

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:41 pm

Keesa wrote:I use email for most of my correspondance these days because half the time I can't afford stamps. The last thing I need is a charge for my email.

The cost factor does make email more attractive... but don't you miss receiving letters in the mail the old fashioned way? Aren't you thrilled about getting something in the mail that is NOT junk mail or a bill?

Don't you look forward to opening the envelope, holding the paper and reading the sender's message? Don't you miss the uniqueness of the sender's handwriting? Don't you miss the scent of paper stationery?

I still write letters using pen and paper. The only difference today is that my handwriting has deteriorated because I do so much more typing.

Carola · Post by **Carola** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:08 pm

When I started talking about charges for email I wasn't thinking so much of the individual user paying as the ISP's being charged for their volume usage through whatever telecommunication supplier they use - at some stage everything has to go through these systems. If the larger carriers imposed some sort of penalty on ISP's that allowed their clients to make bulk mail-outs that would soon stop them! At the moment I couldn't be a spammer (not that I'd ever want to!!) because my ISP will simply cut you off if they get a hint of this sort of behaviour. But you can get an account with ISP's in some countries with no regulations and spam away as much as you like. Maybe the large carriers have to stop bleating that they can't do anything and start getting heavy with these people, otherwise a perfectly good communication method is going to fail. Or is that what governments want to happen? God forbid that we might actually all be able to communicate with each other to find out what is really going on in the world and not what CNN tells us!

annis · Post by **annis** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:24 pm

Keesa wrote: The last thing I need is a charge for my email.

I usually hear this presented as giving several 1000 free ones if you meter at the level of the individual users.

It's not at all clear to me that this sort of scheme would work.

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:41 pm

[quote="mariek]

The cost factor does make email more attractive... but don't you miss receiving letters in the mail the old fashioned way? Aren't you thrilled about getting something in the mail that is NOT junk mail or a bill?

Don't you look forward to opening the envelope, holding the paper and reading the sender's message? Don't you miss the uniqueness of the sender's handwriting? Don't you miss the scent of paper stationery?

I still write letters using pen and paper. The only difference today is that my handwriting has deteriorated because I do so much more typing.

[/quote]

I love old-fashioned letters. Up until a year ago, I wrote nothing else, and as soon as I can afford it, I'll write nothing else again. But they keep on raising the postage rates...until I can afford stamps again, I hope they don't start charging for emails. (After that, as they please.)

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:59 am

Keesa wrote:But they keep on raising the postage rates...

Yes, that's annoying. I remember when postage was a dime, or was it 13 cents? Hmmm... that was a long time ago.

What gets me is how they don't always print the cost on the stamps. Earlier this week I dug out a 20-stamp booklet from my wallet. It's the Antique Toys design... 4 designs on cars/trains. The front of the stamp only says "first-class", "usa", and "2002". OK, how much is this stamp worth? Is it 37 cents? Is it 34 cents and I have to add 3 cents to use it? Grr...

Oh, I have to add this: The booklet cover only says "twenty first-class self-adhesive stamps". If it told me how much the booklet cost, then I could figure out the cost per stamp...

Emma_85 · Post by **Emma_85** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:10 pm

37 cents is cheap! Although the US post service is terrible from what I've heard - I wouldn't trust it.
But it's much more expensive here, a letter to anywhere in Europe will cost 55 cents, and the Euro is worth more than the dollar.

Post by **klewlis** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:32 pm

lol. The US postal service is fine.

It's those european postal services that we don't trust over here ;)

mariek · Post by **mariek** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:08 am

Emma_85 wrote:37 cents is cheap! Although the US post service is terrible from what I've heard - I wouldn't trust it.
But it's much more expensive here, a letter to anywhere in Europe will cost 55 cents, and the Euro is worth more than the dollar.

I wouldn't trust it either! I've had two pieces of mail opened(!) before it eventually ended up in my mailbox. The first piece was my paycheck. What's disturbing is that the paystub contains a lot of info, like my Social Security Number.

Oh, I should also mention that the paycheck arrived almost two months late. Well, ever since this incident, I switched to direct deposit. Shortly afterwards, as a cost-cutting move, the firm no longer mails out the paystubs so we have to print it out ourselves. The second piece was a personal letter, where someone slit open two sides of the envelope, and then re-taped it up.

It costs 80 cents to mail a letter from USA to France, 70 cents to mail a postcard to France. When I'm sending more than one postcard to the same person, I'll put them all in an envelope and slap on 80 cents worth of stamps. I like to keep it interesting, so I put different postage stamp designs on the envelope for my French friends.

Carola · Post by **Carola** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:55 pm

Well, I won't complain about the Australian postal service any more - about 35cents US for postage anywhere in Australia and next day delivery between larger cities (and most of the larger country centres). It's very reliable and, while the postal service doesn't recommend it, I even send banknotes to my nephews & nieces for Christmas etc. Everything gets there safely and I have hardly ever lost a letter (probably due to my poor handwriting more than theft!)

bingley · Post by **bingley** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:01 am

From mariek:

>>Aren't you thrilled about getting something in the mail that is NOT junk mail or a bill? <<

Aren't you thrilled about getting something in your inbox that is NOT spam?

Carola · Post by **Carola** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:37 am

A new spam horror seems to have started lately - I get about 10 of the same spams from 10 different addresses. I get so mad about spam - it infuriates me so much that if I ever meet someone who says they do this for a living I will just have to punch them! And I'm not exactly built like Zena the Warrior Princess either!

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