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Some (more questions from LLPSI

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Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Sun May 29, 2011 4:07 pm

1) Iactura mercium non modo navis, sed etiam vita omnium nostrum servata est.

What's the difference between 'nostrum' and 'nostri' and 'vestrum' and 'vestri'?

2) Ille vero, consilio eorum cognito, pecuniam ceteraque sua nautis dedit....

Num 'consilio' ablativus?

'cognito' ppp masc. ablativus. singularis.?

= Arion consilium nautarum cognitus est deinde pecuniam ceteraque sua is dedit. [?]
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby furrykef » Sun May 29, 2011 6:09 pm

pmda wrote:1) Iactura mercium non modo navis, sed etiam vita omnium nostrum servata est.

What's the difference between 'nostrum' and 'nostri' and 'vestrum' and 'vestri'?


"Nostrum" is the accusative of "noster". It works the same way as "tuus" and "meus". "Nostrī" and "vestrī" are the genitive form; they're only used when modifying a noun that's also in the genitive.

Amor noster est magnus. Dōnum amōris nostrī vōbīs gerō.


2) Ille vero, consilio eorum cognito, pecuniam ceteraque sua nautis dedit....

Num 'consilio' ablativus?

'cognito' ppp masc. ablativus. singularis.?

It's an ablative absolute. (Thus, "cognitō" is actually neuter, since "cōnsilium" is.) "But when their plan became known [lit. "with their plan known"], he gave the money and other things to the sailors..."


= Arion consilium nautarum cognitus est deinde pecuniam ceteraque sua is dedit. [?]

It'd be "eōrum" rather than "sua" if the stuff belongs to the sailors in the first place, since "nautae" isn't the subject of any clause here. Otherwise it's fine, yes.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Mon May 30, 2011 6:15 am

thanks furrykef.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby Craig_Thomas » Mon May 30, 2011 12:02 pm

The pronouns nōs and uōs each have two genitives: nostrum/nostrī and uestrum/uestrī. Nostrum and uestrum are used only as partitive genitives. Omnium nostrum = of all of us.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Mon May 30, 2011 5:37 pm

[quote="furrykef"][quote="pmda"]1) Iactura mercium non modo navis, sed etiam vita omnium nostrum servata est.

"Nostrum" is the accusative of "noster". It works the same way as "tuus" and "meus". "Nostrī" and "vestrī" are the genitive form; they're only used when modifying a noun that's also in the genitive.

But I'd parse this as follows: Iactura (Fem. Ab. Sing.) mercium (Fem. Gen. Pl.) non modo (Adv.) navis (Fem. Nom. Sing.), sed etiam vita (Fem. Nom. Sing.) omnium (Masc. Gen. Pl.) nostrum (?) servata (PPP. Fem. Nom. Sing.) est.

Shouldn't 'Nostrum' be 'Nostra' - to agree with 'Vita' seeing as: vita nostra servata est. 'Nostrum' is an adjective so shouldn't it agree with 'vita'. Also the sentence is using a passive voice construction.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Mon May 30, 2011 5:54 pm

Craig_Thomas wrote:The pronouns nōs and uōs each have two genitives: nostrum/nostrī and uestrum/uestrī. Nostrum and uestrum are used only as partitive genitives. Omnium nostrum = of all of us.


I think I get it.... I'll think about it..
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby furrykef » Tue May 31, 2011 5:10 am

Craig_Thomas is right. I'd completely forgotten this usage, especially since it applies only to "noster" and "vester", not "meus", etc.

The genitive of pronouns (instead of possessive pronouns like "meus") is used for the partitive, e.g., pars meī = part of me; pars nostrī/nostrum (here interchangeable) = part of us.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Tue May 31, 2011 7:06 am

OK

So in vita omnium nostrum servata est.' 'omnium nostrum' are BOTH both partitive genitive, right?

And the part. gen. form 'nostrum' is really acting like the genitive plural of a 3rd declension noun...

Is that it?
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby furrykef » Tue May 31, 2011 11:32 pm

pmda wrote:So in vita omnium nostrum servata est.' 'omnium nostrum' are BOTH both partitive genitive, right?

The "omnium" isn't partitive, just possessive: "everyone's life". It's just the "nostrum" that's partitive.

And the part. gen. form 'nostrum' is really acting like the genitive plural of a 3rd declension noun...

I think you've lost me here...

"Partitive" basically covers most uses of the genitive that aren't possessive. For instance, if you say "every one of us", you don't really mean "our every one"; the "of us" is something different.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:16 am

@furrykef thanks

What I'm saying is:

'vita omnium nostrum servata est

Vita [Fem. Nom. Sing.] omnium [Masc. Gen. Pl. Adjective agreeing with following Partitive Genitive..] 'nostrum' [Partitive Genitive with which 'omnium' agrees]...

- literally 'The life of us all has been saved'.

The reason why I say 'nostrum' - which is an alternative to 'nostri' (also genitive) is that, as a partitive genetive it takes that alternative form (?) - and I'm observing that the alternative genitive 'nostrum' has the same ending as 3d declension genitive plural nouns / adjectives.

I'm probably being very deliberative and simple minded...!

My original question was in what circumstances do you use 'nostrum' as opposed to 'nostri'.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby gfross » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:23 pm

The genitives of the personal pronouns nostri and vestri are objective, e.g., cupidus nostri ("desirous of us," "wanting us"); the genitives of the personal pronouns nostrum and vestrum are partitive, e.g., unus nostrum ("one of us").

I read "vita ominium nostrum" literally as "the life of all of us," with both omnium and nostrum functioning pronominally, not adjectivally.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:36 pm

gfross wrote:The genitives of the personal pronouns nostri and vestri are objective, e.g., cupidus nostri ("desirous of us," "wanting us"); the genitives of the personal pronouns nostrum and vestrum are partitive, e.g., unus nostrum ("one of us").

I read "vita ominium nostrum" literally as "the life of all of us," with both omnium and nostrum functioning pronominally, not adjectivally.


I'm a bit confused about this.

You say 'the genitives of the personal pronouns nostri....etc...' and then '...the genitives of ....nostrum etc...' But I thought they were the same pronoun as follows:

N. nos
A. nos
G.nostrum / nostri
D.nobis
Ab. nobis

and that 'nostrum' / 'nostri' are two genitive forms of the same pronoun which are used according to something like the rules you have outlined above...

and that it makes no sense to talk about the 'genitives of vestrum / nostrum' Nostrum and vestrum ARE genitives.

Are you (am I?) confusing all this with the adjectives noster, nostra, nostrum ???
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby gfross » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:46 am

Sorry, I should have explained more clearly.

As you said, both nostrum and nostri are the genitive plural forms of the personal pronoun nos (we). Nostrum is a partitive genitive: unus nostrum (one of us). Nostri is an objective genitive: cupidus nostri (desirous of us, wanting us).

The phrase "omnes nostrum" could be translated as "all of us", e.g., omnes nostrum adsumus (all of us are here). Omnibus nostrum could be translated as "to all of us". e.g., pecuniam omnibus nostrum dedit (he gave money to all of us). Omnium nostrum could be translated as "of all of us", e.g., vita omnium nostrum servata est (the life of all of us has been saved).

This is my understanding, anyway, for what it's worth. :)
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI

Postby pmda » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:53 am

Thanks. Mind you I don't have any trouble, so far, understanding what these mean when I come across them....
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