Some (more questions from LLPSI
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Some (more questions from LLPSI
1) Iactura mercium non modo navis, sed etiam vita omnium nostrum servata est.
What's the difference between 'nostrum' and 'nostri' and 'vestrum' and 'vestri'?
2) Ille vero, consilio eorum cognito, pecuniam ceteraque sua nautis dedit....
Num 'consilio' ablativus?
'cognito' ppp masc. ablativus. singularis.?
= Arion consilium nautarum cognitus est deinde pecuniam ceteraque sua is dedit. [?]
What's the difference between 'nostrum' and 'nostri' and 'vestrum' and 'vestri'?
2) Ille vero, consilio eorum cognito, pecuniam ceteraque sua nautis dedit....
Num 'consilio' ablativus?
'cognito' ppp masc. ablativus. singularis.?
= Arion consilium nautarum cognitus est deinde pecuniam ceteraque sua is dedit. [?]
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
"Nostrum" is the accusative of "noster". It works the same way as "tuus" and "meus". "Nostrī" and "vestrī" are the genitive form; they're only used when modifying a noun that's also in the genitive.pmda wrote:1) Iactura mercium non modo navis, sed etiam vita omnium nostrum servata est.
What's the difference between 'nostrum' and 'nostri' and 'vestrum' and 'vestri'?
Amor noster est magnus. Dōnum amōris nostrī vōbīs gerō.
It's an ablative absolute. (Thus, "cognitō" is actually neuter, since "cōnsilium" is.) "But when their plan became known [lit. "with their plan known"], he gave the money and other things to the sailors..."2) Ille vero, consilio eorum cognito, pecuniam ceteraque sua nautis dedit....
Num 'consilio' ablativus?
'cognito' ppp masc. ablativus. singularis.?
It'd be "eōrum" rather than "sua" if the stuff belongs to the sailors in the first place, since "nautae" isn't the subject of any clause here. Otherwise it's fine, yes.= Arion consilium nautarum cognitus est deinde pecuniam ceteraque sua is dedit. [?]
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
thanks furrykef.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
The pronouns nōs and uōs each have two genitives: nostrum/nostrī and uestrum/uestrī. Nostrum and uestrum are used only as partitive genitives. Omnium nostrum = of all of us.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
[quote="furrykef"][quote="pmda"]1) Iactura mercium non modo navis, sed etiam vita omnium nostrum servata est.
"Nostrum" is the accusative of "noster". It works the same way as "tuus" and "meus". "Nostrī" and "vestrī" are the genitive form; they're only used when modifying a noun that's also in the genitive.
But I'd parse this as follows: Iactura (Fem. Ab. Sing.) mercium (Fem. Gen. Pl.) non modo (Adv.) navis (Fem. Nom. Sing.), sed etiam vita (Fem. Nom. Sing.) omnium (Masc. Gen. Pl.) nostrum (?) servata (PPP. Fem. Nom. Sing.) est.
Shouldn't 'Nostrum' be 'Nostra' - to agree with 'Vita' seeing as: vita nostra servata est. 'Nostrum' is an adjective so shouldn't it agree with 'vita'. Also the sentence is using a passive voice construction.
"Nostrum" is the accusative of "noster". It works the same way as "tuus" and "meus". "Nostrī" and "vestrī" are the genitive form; they're only used when modifying a noun that's also in the genitive.
But I'd parse this as follows: Iactura (Fem. Ab. Sing.) mercium (Fem. Gen. Pl.) non modo (Adv.) navis (Fem. Nom. Sing.), sed etiam vita (Fem. Nom. Sing.) omnium (Masc. Gen. Pl.) nostrum (?) servata (PPP. Fem. Nom. Sing.) est.
Shouldn't 'Nostrum' be 'Nostra' - to agree with 'Vita' seeing as: vita nostra servata est. 'Nostrum' is an adjective so shouldn't it agree with 'vita'. Also the sentence is using a passive voice construction.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
I think I get it.... I'll think about it..Craig_Thomas wrote:The pronouns nōs and uōs each have two genitives: nostrum/nostrī and uestrum/uestrī. Nostrum and uestrum are used only as partitive genitives. Omnium nostrum = of all of us.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
Craig_Thomas is right. I'd completely forgotten this usage, especially since it applies only to "noster" and "vester", not "meus", etc.
The genitive of pronouns (instead of possessive pronouns like "meus") is used for the partitive, e.g., pars meī = part of me; pars nostrī/nostrum (here interchangeable) = part of us.
The genitive of pronouns (instead of possessive pronouns like "meus") is used for the partitive, e.g., pars meī = part of me; pars nostrī/nostrum (here interchangeable) = part of us.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
OK
So in vita omnium nostrum servata est.' 'omnium nostrum' are BOTH both partitive genitive, right?
And the part. gen. form 'nostrum' is really acting like the genitive plural of a 3rd declension noun...
Is that it?
So in vita omnium nostrum servata est.' 'omnium nostrum' are BOTH both partitive genitive, right?
And the part. gen. form 'nostrum' is really acting like the genitive plural of a 3rd declension noun...
Is that it?
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
The "omnium" isn't partitive, just possessive: "everyone's life". It's just the "nostrum" that's partitive.pmda wrote:So in vita omnium nostrum servata est.' 'omnium nostrum' are BOTH both partitive genitive, right?
I think you've lost me here...And the part. gen. form 'nostrum' is really acting like the genitive plural of a 3rd declension noun...
"Partitive" basically covers most uses of the genitive that aren't possessive. For instance, if you say "every one of us", you don't really mean "our every one"; the "of us" is something different.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
@furrykef thanks
What I'm saying is:
'vita omnium nostrum servata est
Vita [Fem. Nom. Sing.] omnium [Masc. Gen. Pl. Adjective agreeing with following Partitive Genitive..] 'nostrum' [Partitive Genitive with which 'omnium' agrees]...
- literally 'The life of us all has been saved'.
The reason why I say 'nostrum' - which is an alternative to 'nostri' (also genitive) is that, as a partitive genetive it takes that alternative form (?) - and I'm observing that the alternative genitive 'nostrum' has the same ending as 3d declension genitive plural nouns / adjectives.
I'm probably being very deliberative and simple minded...!
My original question was in what circumstances do you use 'nostrum' as opposed to 'nostri'.
What I'm saying is:
'vita omnium nostrum servata est
Vita [Fem. Nom. Sing.] omnium [Masc. Gen. Pl. Adjective agreeing with following Partitive Genitive..] 'nostrum' [Partitive Genitive with which 'omnium' agrees]...
- literally 'The life of us all has been saved'.
The reason why I say 'nostrum' - which is an alternative to 'nostri' (also genitive) is that, as a partitive genetive it takes that alternative form (?) - and I'm observing that the alternative genitive 'nostrum' has the same ending as 3d declension genitive plural nouns / adjectives.
I'm probably being very deliberative and simple minded...!
My original question was in what circumstances do you use 'nostrum' as opposed to 'nostri'.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
The genitives of the personal pronouns nostri and vestri are objective, e.g., cupidus nostri ("desirous of us," "wanting us"); the genitives of the personal pronouns nostrum and vestrum are partitive, e.g., unus nostrum ("one of us").
I read "vita ominium nostrum" literally as "the life of all of us," with both omnium and nostrum functioning pronominally, not adjectivally.
I read "vita ominium nostrum" literally as "the life of all of us," with both omnium and nostrum functioning pronominally, not adjectivally.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
I'm a bit confused about this.gfross wrote:The genitives of the personal pronouns nostri and vestri are objective, e.g., cupidus nostri ("desirous of us," "wanting us"); the genitives of the personal pronouns nostrum and vestrum are partitive, e.g., unus nostrum ("one of us").
I read "vita ominium nostrum" literally as "the life of all of us," with both omnium and nostrum functioning pronominally, not adjectivally.
You say 'the genitives of the personal pronouns nostri....etc...' and then '...the genitives of ....nostrum etc...' But I thought they were the same pronoun as follows:
N. nos
A. nos
G.nostrum / nostri
D.nobis
Ab. nobis
and that 'nostrum' / 'nostri' are two genitive forms of the same pronoun which are used according to something like the rules you have outlined above...
and that it makes no sense to talk about the 'genitives of vestrum / nostrum' Nostrum and vestrum ARE genitives.
Are you (am I?) confusing all this with the adjectives noster, nostra, nostrum ???
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
Sorry, I should have explained more clearly.
As you said, both nostrum and nostri are the genitive plural forms of the personal pronoun nos (we). Nostrum is a partitive genitive: unus nostrum (one of us). Nostri is an objective genitive: cupidus nostri (desirous of us, wanting us).
The phrase "omnes nostrum" could be translated as "all of us", e.g., omnes nostrum adsumus (all of us are here). Omnibus nostrum could be translated as "to all of us". e.g., pecuniam omnibus nostrum dedit (he gave money to all of us). Omnium nostrum could be translated as "of all of us", e.g., vita omnium nostrum servata est (the life of all of us has been saved).
This is my understanding, anyway, for what it's worth.
As you said, both nostrum and nostri are the genitive plural forms of the personal pronoun nos (we). Nostrum is a partitive genitive: unus nostrum (one of us). Nostri is an objective genitive: cupidus nostri (desirous of us, wanting us).
The phrase "omnes nostrum" could be translated as "all of us", e.g., omnes nostrum adsumus (all of us are here). Omnibus nostrum could be translated as "to all of us". e.g., pecuniam omnibus nostrum dedit (he gave money to all of us). Omnium nostrum could be translated as "of all of us", e.g., vita omnium nostrum servata est (the life of all of us has been saved).
This is my understanding, anyway, for what it's worth.
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Re: Some (more questions from LLPSI
Thanks. Mind you I don't have any trouble, so far, understanding what these mean when I come across them....