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D.9.21

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D.9.21

Postby pster » Fri May 13, 2011 5:11 pm

Third Philippic.

ὅτι μὲν δὴ μέγας ἐκ μικροῦ καὶ ταπεινοῦ τὸ κατ᾽ ἀρχὰς Φίλιππος ηὔξηται, καὶ [ὅτι] ἀπίστως καὶ στασιαστικῶς ἔχουσι πρὸς αὑτοὺς οἱ Ἕλληνες, καὶ ὅτι πολλῷ παραδοξότερον ἦν τοσοῦτον αὐτὸν ἐξ ἐκείνου γενέσθαι ἢ νῦν, ὅθ᾽ οὕτω πολλὰ προείληφε, καὶ τὰ λοιπὰ ὑφ᾽ αὑτῷ ποιήσασθαι, καὶ πάνθ᾽ ὅσα τοιαῦτ᾽ ἂν ἔχοιμι διεξελθεῖν, παραλείψω.

-I guess τοσοῦτον is the actual predicate adjective here?

-But then what is the role of παραδοξότερον? A neuter nominative adjective or an adverb?

-And what exactly is the relation of πολλῷ to παραδοξότερον? And I guess what is really bothering me: what is the relationship of παραδοξότερον to τοσοῦτον? An adjective can't modify another adjective after all!

-And wouldn't this read better with a comparative παραδοξότερον sans πολλῷ and sans τοσοῦτον?

-οὕτω is a demonstrative adverb that can be omitted? And does it seem to point outside the sentence for its referent? I hope so (I think!)!

Thanks in advance.
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Re: D.9.21

Postby Homer74 » Fri May 13, 2011 9:53 pm

Hi pster,

I had a look at your excerpt and here are some thoughts:

- πολλῷ
Adverb: 'in many ways'. This does not have to agree with anything else in the clause.

- παραδοξότερον ἦν τοσοῦτον αὐτὸν ἐξ ἐκείνου γενέσθαι ἢ νῦν
This may be contradicted by more experienced hands, but my reading is:
"the more amazing thing (παραδοξότερον) was (ἦν) that he (αὐτὸν) became (γενέσθαι) so great (τοσοῦτον) from that (or from then?) (ἐξ ἐκείνου) than now (ἢ νῦν)"

So in this reading παραδοξότερον would be neuter nominative singular and τοσοῦτον would be masculine accusative singular. Then the accusative/infinitive clause (τοσοῦτον αὐτὸν ἐξ ἐκείνου γενέσθαι) stands as a counterpart to παραδοξότερον.

But having said that, I rank Demosthenes as the most difficult Attic author because his thoughts are so compressed.
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Re: D.9.21

Postby Imber Ranae » Sat May 14, 2011 6:44 am

Homer74 wrote:Hi pster,

I had a look at your excerpt and here are some thoughts:

- πολλῷ
Adverb: 'in many ways'. This does not have to agree with anything else in the clause.


That would probably have been πολλά, don't you think? To me πολλῷ is more naturally taken as a dative of degree of difference.

Homer74 wrote:So in this reading παραδοξότερον would be neuter nominative singular and τοσοῦτον would be masculine accusative singular. Then the accusative/infinitive clause (τοσοῦτον αὐτὸν ἐξ ἐκείνου γενέσθαι) stands as a counterpart to παραδοξότερον.


I agree with your grammatical analysis that παραδοξότερον is the predicate of an accusative + infinitive clause. ἐξ ἐκείνου is indeed temporal, meaning "since then".

    ...καὶ ὅτι πολλῷ παραδοξότερον ἦν τοσοῦτον αὐτὸν ἐξ ἐκείνου γενέσθαι ἢ νῦν, ὅθ᾽ οὕτω πολλὰ προείληφε...[/i]

    "...and the fact that it was far more incredible for him to become so great since that time than [for him to be so great] now, [considering] that he's got so much already..."

I.e. it's not so much a miracle that he is powerful now as that he was able to become powerful in the first place in view of his humble beginnings.

pster wrote:-οὕτω is a demonstrative adverb that can be omitted? And does it seem to point outside the sentence for its referent? I hope so (I think!)!


I'm not sure what you mean by "point outside the sentence for it's referent". I suppose the referent is implied, but that's often the case with οὕτω and similar words. It's pretty simple to just translate οὕτω πολλὰ quite literally as "so many things".
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: D.9.21

Postby Homer74 » Sat May 14, 2011 9:04 am

Imber Ranae wrote:
Homer74 wrote:Hi pster,

I had a look at your excerpt and here are some thoughts:

- πολλῷ
Adverb: 'in many ways'. This does not have to agree with anything else in the clause.


That would probably have been πολλά, don't you think? To me πολλῷ is more naturally taken as a dative of degree of difference.


Hi Imber,

Yes, that makes more sense! I was seeing πολλῇ for πολλῷ
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Re: D.9.21

Postby pster » Sat May 14, 2011 11:50 pm

Thanks so much both of you. I understand it now.
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