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RA Cap 48

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RA Cap 48

Postby dsimo04 » Tue May 10, 2011 9:18 pm

Daniel omnibus spd

Salvete omnes! Adhuc laboro in versibus 8 usque ad 11 capituli duodequinquagesimi (48) Romae Aeternae.

Versus verbatim dicunt: "Odiis etiam prope maioribus certaverunt quam viribus, Romanis indignantibus quod victores victi ultro inferrent arma, Poenis quod superbe avareque crederent imperitatum victis esse."

Ad latus rectum Orberg explicat sententiam dictatur 'cum Romani indignarentur quod..., Poeni quod...' Nonne 'indignor' verbum deponens?

Sed in isto modo Poenos Romanis arma ultro intulisse indicaret. Si erro, me emendate, sed nonne Romani Poenis ultro intulerunt?

Et in verso undecimo, utrum 'crederent', Romani an Poeni? Cui refert 'imperitatum' verbum?

Gratias pro auxilio!
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby adrianus » Tue May 10, 2011 11:57 pm

Salve Daniel
dsimo04 wrote:Nonne 'indignor' verbum deponens?

Certum est. Activum tamen est participium praesens.

dsimo04 wrote:Sed in isto modo Poenos Romanis arma ultro intulisse indicaret. Si erro, me emendate, sed nonne Romani Poenis ultro intulerunt?

Minimé. Poeni quamvìs victi arma ultrò intulerunt contra victores (nonnè "victoribus" scribitur?)

dsimo04 wrote:Et in verso undecimo, utrum 'crederent', Romani an Poeni?

Poeni crederent.

dsimo04 wrote:Cui refert 'imperitatum' verbum?
Neminem id strictìm refert sed rem quae impersonaliter tractatur (intransitivo "imperito" verbo): quod Poeni crederent superbè avaréque imperitatum esse sibi victis Poenis à Romanis.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby dsimo04 » Wed May 11, 2011 6:43 pm

Gratias ut me contestavisti Adriane!
adrianus wrote:Minimé. Poeni quamvìs victi arma ultrò intulerunt contra victores (nonnè "victoribus" scribitur?)


Recte dicis, mea culpa quod 'victores' scripsi. Itane Romani indignabatur quod apparentibus victis Poeni tamen arma intulerunt? Fortasse mihi necesse est prius capitulum iterum legere. Finemne facere bellum Romani aestimabant?


adrianus wrote:Neminem id strictìm refert sed rem quae impersonaliter tractatur (intransitivo "imperito" verbo): quod Poeni crederent superbè avaréque imperitatum esse sibi victis Poenis à Romanis.


Tamen adhuc verbi 'imperitatum' usum non intellego. Ne Anglice quidem quod hoc versu T. Livius dicit dicere possum. The Carthaginians were resentful because they arrogantly and greedily believed that...being conquered they should still rule?

Gratias pro patentia tua!

Daniel
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby adrianus » Wed May 11, 2011 7:54 pm

dsimo04 wrote:Tamen adhuc verbi 'imperitatum' usum non intellego. Ne Anglice quidem quod hoc versu T. Livius dicit dicere possum. The Carthaginians were resentful because they arrogantly and greedily believed that...being conquered they should still rule?

Sic in sermones anglicos verto: "...[for] the Carthaginians because they believed that they, the defeated, were arrogantly and exploitatively governed." (passive impersonal // passivâ voce impersonale = "it was governed to the defeated Carthaginians")
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dimperito

dsimo04 wrote:Finemne facere bellum Romani aestimabant?

Hoc Romanos vexavit: gentem priùs victam et imparibus cum viribus secedere.
This annoyed the Romans: that a people previously defeated and with inferior resources/lesser strength should arise.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby dsimo04 » Wed May 11, 2011 9:48 pm

Gratias Adriane!

Iam sententiam Livii tuumque ordinis verborum vicis intellego.

adrianus wrote:Hoc Romanos vexavit: gentem priùs victam et imparibus cum viribus secedere.
This annoyed the Romans: that a people previously defeated and with inferior resources/lesser strength should arise.


Iam me intellegere censeo: T. Livius de secundi belli Punici initio dixisse. Tua sententia cum notis meis additis utar: gentem prius (in primo bello) victam et (iam) imparibus cum viribus secedere. Recte intellego?
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby adrianus » Wed May 11, 2011 11:08 pm

dsimo04 wrote:Recte intellego?

Sic est, Daniel. Tu me rectè intellego; ego autem fortassè hanc sententiam malè verto, malè quidem capio, etiamsi contrà credo.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby dsimo04 » Sat May 14, 2011 9:15 pm

Iterum salvete Adriane ceterique sodales!

Quid initionis Hannonis orationis in eodem capitulo?

Hanno orationem suam in senatu Cartaginiensi coepit (ab versu 147 ad 149): "Iuvenum flagrantem cupidine regni viamque unam ad id cernentem si succinctus armis legionibusque vivat, ad exercitus misistis."

Meo verborum ordine Hanno dicit 'Hannibalem iuvenem cupidine regni flagrantem ad exercitus vos misisse qui si succinctus armis legionibus vixerit viam unam qua se id proficere possit cernet.

Recte me intellegere non puto. Quid verbi 'id'? Non ad 'vivere' sed ad cupidinem regni id referre aestimat. Estne Hannibalis cupido Romanis regnare?

Gratias!

Dan
Last edited by dsimo04 on Sun May 15, 2011 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby adrianus » Sat May 14, 2011 11:30 pm

Regnum non cupidinem regni refert "id" pronomen.
Romanos vinci Hannibal vult. Hanno pacem advocat.
"Iuvenum Hannibalem ad exercitus misistis, iuvenum qui cupidine regni flagrat et qui cernit viam unam ad regnum: si succinctus enim armis legionibusque vivat."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby dsimo04 » Sun May 15, 2011 7:01 am

(Hic erro.) Modusne ad sententiam delendam est?
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby adrianus » Sun May 15, 2011 9:52 am

dsimo04 wrote:(Hic erro.) Modusne ad sententiam delendam est?

Quod ibi, Daniel, latinè dicere velis non comprehendo, quod paenitet.
Sorry, Dan, but I don't get what you might mean in Latin there.

Rogasne an haec sententia delenda sit? // Are you asking if this sentence should be deleted?
dsimo04 wrote:Hannibalem iuvenem cupidine regni flagrantem ad exercitus vos misisse qui si succinctus armis legionibus vixerit viam unam qua se id proficere possit cernet.

misisse = misistis (a typo or do you mean the perfect infinitive? // erratum typographicum merum aut veróne infinitivum perfectum dicere vis?)

id is so separated from regni in your sentence, but OK.
Quam longè a regni vocabulo est "id" pronomen. Licet autem.

Why "vixerit" and not "vivat"? // Nonnè "vivat" non "vixerit" scribendum est?

"viam unam qua se id proficere possit"—it isn't good in Latin, I'd say (I who makes lots of mistakes and learns latin in large part through writing in these pages), to try to make an inanimate road appear capable of willfully doing something. Please forgive me. I read "quae" not "quâ". You have Hannibal as the subject of this clause. Great.
Bonum latinum non est, ut opinor (qui saepè erro, qui per scribendum in his paginis modo non breve linguam disco) ut via res inanima agitandi capax videatur. Mihi ignoscas! "Quae" non "quâ" perperàm legi. Hannibal est subjectum clausulae. Bonum est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby dsimo04 » Thu May 19, 2011 6:43 am

Quod ibi, Daniel, latinè dicere velis non comprehendo, quod paenitet.
Sorry, Dan, but I don't get what you might mean in Latin there.


I was trying to say that I made a mistake in posting, is there a way to delete a post? (I only see options to edit).

Why "vixerit" and not "vivat"? // Nonnè "vivat" non "vixerit" scribendum est?


I was trying to capture my understanding of the passage by using the future perfect/future conditional structure. 'If he will have survived then he will see only one way...' I see now that my understanding was slightly flawed. But, was my use of that structure incorrect?

Gratias tibi Adriane pro consiliis adiumentoque quod mihi tantum opus est. Latine scribere debilitas mea; mihi necesse est iterum iterumque exercere.

Dan
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Re: RA Cap 48

Postby adrianus » Thu May 19, 2011 1:13 pm

dsimo04 wrote:...is there a way to delete a post?

There isn't that I know of, apart from appealing to the moderator, thesaurus.
Non est à me notus, separatìm moderatorem thesaurum appellari.
dsimo04 wrote:'If he will have survived then he will see only one way...'...was my use of that structure incorrect?

I think incorrect, to express that different idea. It's a vivid condition and simple: "If he lives (/will live), he will see".
Perperàm constructa seu comprehensa, id mihi videtur, tua alia sententia, quae simplex sit, quae conditionem vividam contineat: "Si vivet, videbit."
dsimo04 wrote:mihi necesse est iterum iterumque exercere.

Et mihi // For me, too.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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