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Loci Antiqui: Cicero on friendship

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Loci Antiqui: Cicero on friendship

Postby anon.edward.mouse » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:33 am

Hi all. Si valetis, valeo--

I'm new to this board. I've been self-studying Latin by myself, mostly, and have gotten to the Loci Antiqui and have had a really difficult time of it with Cicero on friendship.

I'm afraid it's the sort of difficult that makes putting my worries into words rather difficult. I just know that something is rather off. And this is the place to go for help. I hope. Anyway. If someone has been here before, could you please help me? I have emboldened the parts of the passage that I found perplexing--certain parts I found very easy. Could someone please grade my translation?

Anyway: Here's the Latin with the difficult Latin emboldened:

Ego vos horot ut amicitiam omnibus rebus humanis anteponatis. Sentio equidem, exepta sapientia, nihil melius homini a deis immortalibus datus esse. Divitias alii anteponunt; alii, alutem; alii, potestatem; alii honores; multi, etiam voluptates. Illa autem incerta sunt, posita non tam in consiliis nostris quam in fortunae vicissitudinibus. Qui autem in virtute summum bonum ponunt, bene illi quidem faciunt; sed ex ipsa virtute amicitia nascitur nec sine virtute amicitia esse potest.

Denique ceterae res, quae petuntur, opportunae sunt rebus singulis: divitiae, ut eis utaris; honores, ut lauderis; salus, ut dolore careas et rebus corporis utaris. Amicitia res plurimas continent; nullo loco excluditur; numquam intempestiva, numquam molesta est. Itaque non aqua, non igne in locis pluribus utimur quam amicitia; nam amicitia secundas res clariores facit et adversas res leviores.

Quis est qui velit in omnium rerum abundantia ita vivere ut neque diligat quemquam negque ipse ab ullo diligatur? Hec enim est tyrannorum vita, in qua nulla fides, nulla caritas, nulla benevolentia potest esse; omnia simper metuuntur, nullus locus est amicitiae. Quis enim aut eum diligat quem metuat aut eum a quo se metui putet? Multi autem si ceciderunt, ut saepe fit, tum intellegunt quam inopes amicorum fuerint. Quid vero stltius quam cetera parare quae parantur pecunia sed amicos non parare, optimam et pulcherrimam quasi supellectilem vitae?

Quisque ipse se diligit non ut aliam mercedem a se ipse petat sed quod per se quisque sibi carus est. Nisi idem in amicitiam transferetur, verus amicus numquam reperietur. Amicus enim est is qui est tamquam alter idem. Ipse se diligit et alterum quaerit cuius animum ita cum suo misceat ut faciat unum ex duobus. Quid enim dulcius quam habere quicum audeas sic loqui ut tecum?


And here's my attempted rendering--

I urge you (pl.) to put friendship before all human things. I perceive, indeed, with wisdom excepted, nothing better has been given to man by the immortal gods. Some men prefer wealth; others, health; others, power; others, honors; many, even please. Those things, however, are unreliable having been placed not so in our wisdom than in the vicissitudes of fortune. Who however in virtue places the highest good, well these men indeed accomplish; but out of the very same virtue friendship is born and without virtue friendship cannot exist.

At last certain other things, which are sought, are suitable for separate things: wealth, that you may enjoy these things; honors, that you may be praised; health, that you may lack pain and enjoy the things of the body. Friendship contains most things; it is excluded in no place; never unseasonable, never is troublesome. And therefore we enjoy not water not fire in many places (more) than friendship; for friendship makes favorable things more bright and adverse things more light.

Who is he who would wish in the abundance of all things so to live that neither he may esteem anyone nor himself be esteemed by anyone? This truly is the life of tyrants, in which no faith no affection, no benevolence can exist; everything always is feared, no place is for friendship. Truly, who either would love him whom he feared or would reckon himself by whether I feared him? If many men, moreover, fell, as it often happens, then they understand how bereft of friends they have been. What truly more foolish than to obtain the remaining things which are provided by money but not to obtain friends, the best and most beautiful as it were furniture of life?

Each very person loves himself not that he himself may seek at another reward from himself but because by himself each person is dear to himself. Unless the same thing will be directed toward friendship, a true friend will never be discovered. A friend truly is he who is as it were a second self. He himself loves himself and seeks another of whose soul so would mix with his own that he may make one out of two. What truly more sweetly than to possess him with which you would dare thus to speak just with yourself.

For any help you can give, thank you.
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Re: Loci Antiqui: Cicero on friendship

Postby thesaurus » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:28 pm

Ego vos horot hortor ut amicitiam omnibus rebus humanis anteponatis. Sentio equidem, exepta sapientia, nihil melius homini a deis immortalibus datus datum esse. Divitias alii anteponunt; alii, alutem salutem; alii, potestatem; alii honores; multi, etiam voluptates. Illa autem incerta sunt, posita non tam in consiliis nostris quam in fortunae vicissitudinibus. Qui autem in virtute summum bonum ponunt, bene illi quidem faciunt; sed ex ipsa virtute amicitia nascitur nec sine virtute amicitia esse potest.


Those things, however, are unreliable having been placed not so in our wisdom than in the vicissitudes of fortune.


"...having been placed not so much in our plans as in the vicissitudes of fortune."

"tam... quam" is a balanced construction. "so much . . . as"

Instead of "well these men indeed accomplish," I'd translate as "those men certainly do well [i.e., do a a good thing]"

Denique ceterae res, quae petuntur, opportunae sunt rebus singulis: divitiae, ut eis utaris; honores, ut lauderis; salus, ut dolore careas et rebus corporis utaris. Amicitia res plurimas continent; nullo loco excluditur; numquam intempestiva, numquam molesta est. Itaque non aqua, non igne in locis pluribus utimur quam amicitia; nam amicitia secundas res clariores facit et adversas res leviores.

At last certain other things, which are sought, are suitable for separate things: wealth, that you may enjoy these things; honors, that you may be praised; health, that you may lack pain and enjoy the things of the body. Friendship contains most things; it is excluded in no place; never unseasonable, never is troublesome. And therefore we enjoy not water not fire in many places (more) than friendship; for friendship makes favorable things more bright and adverse things more light.


"At last certain other things": no need for "certain" here.
"divitiae, ut eis utaris": "riches, that you may use them." If you say "wealth," you keep it singular in the translation ("that you may use it"). Latin happens to use the plural for that noun.
"Itaque non aqua, non igne in locis pluribus utimur quam amicitia": "Therefore we use neither water nor fire in more places than [we use] friendship." The comparative adverb "plus, pluris" is declined as "pluribus" here; it's not the superlative form.

Quis est qui velit in omnium rerum abundantia ita vivere ut neque diligat quemquam negque ipse ab ullo diligatur? Hec enim est tyrannorum vita, in qua nulla fides, nulla caritas, nulla benevolentia potest esse; omnia simper metuuntur, nullus locus est amicitiae. Quis enim aut eum diligat quem metuat aut eum a quo se metui putet? Multi autem si ceciderunt, ut saepe fit, tum intellegunt quam inopes amicorum fuerint. Quid vero stltius quam cetera parare quae parantur pecunia sed amicos non parare, optimam et pulcherrimam quasi supellectilem vitae?

Who is he who would wish in the abundance of all things so to live that neither he may esteem anyone nor himself be esteemed by anyone? This truly is the life of tyrants, in which no faith no affection, no benevolence can exist; everything always is feared, no place is for friendship. Truly, who either would love him whom he feared or would reckon himself by whether I feared him? If many men, moreover, fell, as it often happens, then they understand how bereft of friends they have been. What truly more foolish than to obtain the remaining things which are provided by money but not to obtain friends, the best and most beautiful as it were furniture of life?


I'd translate "caritas" as "charity."

"enim" means something more like "for" instead of "truly."

"Quis enim aut eum diligat quem metuat aut eum a quo se metui putet?" "For who would either love him whom he fears, or him by whom he thinks himself feared? [i.e., who would love a person who we think fears us?]"

There's probably a subtle difference, but I think Cicero uses diligere in the sense of to like or love someone, something we probably feel towards friends (although "esteem" is fine).

" Multi autem si ceciderunt, ut saepe fit": "cadere" here is used metaphorically, as in a fall from grace. As the wheel of fortune (rota fortunae) was understood, those at the top ("multi" here probably refers to the "tyrants") eventually "fall" from the top of the wheel into a lowly position.

"parare"

Quisque ipse se diligit non ut aliam mercedem a se ipse petat sed quod per se quisque sibi carus est. Nisi idem in amicitiam transferetur, verus amicus numquam reperietur. Amicus enim est is qui est tamquam alter idem. Ipse se diligit et alterum quaerit cuius animum ita cum suo misceat ut faciat unum ex duobus. Quid enim dulcius quam habere quicum audeas sic loqui ut tecum?

Each very person loves himself not that he himself may seek at another reward from himself but because by himself each person is dear to himself. Unless the same thing will be directed toward friendship, a true friend will never be discovered. A friend truly is he who is as it were a second self. He himself loves himself and seeks another of whose soul so would mix with his own that he may make one out of two. What truly more sweetly than to possess him with which you would dare thus to speak just with yourself.


"Quisque ipse se diligit non ut aliam mercedem a se ipse petat sed quod per se quisque sibi carus est.": I think your translation works well here. All of the "ipse" "se" and "quisque" is tough to translate literally.

I think you get it, but just to be clear, "idem" here refers to the love one feels for himself. That same feeling/impulse needs to be directed towards friendship if it is to be "true."

"Amicus enim est is qui est tamquam alter idem": somewhat tough to translate, but you do fine. "For a friend is he who is just as another self."

"alterum quaerit cuius animum ita cum suo misceat": "he seeks another whose soul he may thus mix with his own." note that "is" is still the subject of this clause, not "animum" (which is accusative object).

"Quid enim dulcius quam habere quicum audeas sic loqui ut tecum?" This sentence seems to be missing a little something, but I'm not sure if that's Wheelock's version, if this is Cicero's on abbreviated style, of if there's been a scribal/typographical error. When I google this phrase, I get a several different versions.

The Latin Library's version gives this: "Quid dulcius quam habere [aliquem] quicum omnia audeas sic loqui ut tecum"

However you take it, the idea is "What is sweeter than to have someone with whom you dare to say everything, just as you'd talk to yourself."

"loquor mecum" and similar phrases mean "to talk to yourself."

Very nice translation.

Edit: I originally thought "quicum" was a mistake here, and would expect "cum quo," but it seems that "quicum" was a perfectly legitimate way of saying "with whom/which"
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Loci Antiqui: Cicero on friendship

Postby anon.edward.mouse » Sat May 14, 2011 9:13 pm

Thank you very much. I'm sorry for my late reply and for thanking you rather lately.

Thank you a million times nonetheless!

Very sincerely
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