In 1 John 1:5 we read και εστιν αυτη (and this is)
In 1 John 2:25 we read και αυτη εστιν (and this is)
Is there a difference grammatically? If so what is it that the writer is saying in 1:5 verses 2:25
Thank you for your help
GTM
και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 pm
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
- Contact:
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
The translators seem to be in agreement that there is no grammatical difference and it reads as
"this is the message/promise" (1:5 & 2:25 accordingly). I suppose you could translate 1:5 as "and there is this message that..." but
as far as I know, ἔστιν is always accented this way at the beginning of the clause and is not necessarily a mark of existential copula,
which here seems more natural to translate it as regular one.
"this is the message/promise" (1:5 & 2:25 accordingly). I suppose you could translate 1:5 as "and there is this message that..." but
as far as I know, ἔστιν is always accented this way at the beginning of the clause and is not necessarily a mark of existential copula,
which here seems more natural to translate it as regular one.
Nate.
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 pm
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
NateD26
Thank you for your thoughts.
I am in agreement. It did seem a little bit odd however. Every other time (5 or 6 in 1 John) he used this phrase ("και αυτη εστιν"). Only in 1:56 do we see a different word order.
Overall John seemed to be quite consistent in his writing style and this threw me off a little.
GTM
Thank you for your thoughts.
I am in agreement. It did seem a little bit odd however. Every other time (5 or 6 in 1 John) he used this phrase ("και αυτη εστιν"). Only in 1:56 do we see a different word order.
Overall John seemed to be quite consistent in his writing style and this threw me off a little.
GTM
-
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
Hey,
First and foremost, I am no expert in Greek, or in textual criticism (which may relate in some way) so with that disclaimer, here's my 2 cents.
και εστιν αυτη could be a textual variant. If its something that deviates from "normal usage," In this case John's order of εστιν and αυτη, It could be due to variations with the manuscript traditions. You could always check the aparatus and see if the word order is different from manuscript to manuscript. so....
with that being said...
It could be a variant or there may be some significance to it (of which, I would be too new to greek to even know).
First and foremost, I am no expert in Greek, or in textual criticism (which may relate in some way) so with that disclaimer, here's my 2 cents.
και εστιν αυτη could be a textual variant. If its something that deviates from "normal usage," In this case John's order of εστιν and αυτη, It could be due to variations with the manuscript traditions. You could always check the aparatus and see if the word order is different from manuscript to manuscript. so....
with that being said...
It could be a variant or there may be some significance to it (of which, I would be too new to greek to even know).
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 pm
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
uberdwayne
GTM
That makes two of us.First and foremost, I am no expert in Greek,
I have a limited Library when it comes to textual Criticism. But I did look at what I have and there was nothing that addressed this situation. But thank you for the idea. Maybe you or some one else has a better set of Tools when it comes to textual Criticism and can check out your sources.in textual criticism (which may relate in some way) so with that disclaimer, here's my 2 cents.
και εστιν αυτη could be a textual variant. If its something that deviates from "normal usage," In this case John's order of εστιν and αυτη, It could be due to variations with the manuscript traditions. You could always check the aparatus and see if the word order is different from manuscript to manuscript. so....
GTM
-
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
My tools are fairly limited as well, I can take a look though; it would be fun I'm currently posting from work, so I'm limited even more at this point in time. I'll take a look tommorow morning and see if I come up with anything. I also have the bonus of a quiet house in the morning.I have a limited Library when it comes to textual Criticism. But I did look at what I have and there was nothing that addressed this situation. But thank you for the idea. Maybe you or some one else has a better set of Tools when it comes to textual Criticism and can check out your sources.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 pm
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
uberdwayne
I have a nice Library but am adding to it all the time. I need to get more works on Testual Criticism. All I have right now is Metzger.
GTM
My kids are all grown up an on their own. My house is quiet most if the time except for when my wife gets out her "Honey Do" list.My tools are fairly limited as well, I can take a look though; it would be fun I'm currently posting from work, so I'm limited even more at this point in time. I'll take a look tommorrw morning and see if I come up with anything. I also have the bonus of a quiet house in the morning.
I have a nice Library but am adding to it all the time. I need to get more works on Testual Criticism. All I have right now is Metzger.
GTM
-
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν
I know what you mean.except for when my wife gets out her "Honey Do" list
anyway, so, due to my lack of textual critical tools, I have looked up the passages in a number of different Greek texts, and here is what I've come up with:
Here is a list of Greek new testaments which support "Καὶ ἔστιν αὕτη"
Byzentine textform
Tischendorf
Wescott & Hort:
Here is a list that support the alternate order "Καὶ αὕτη ἔστιν"
Majority Text
TR (scrivener and Stephanus)
I couldn't find the text from the NA27, because I Don't readily have one, and its copyrighted, so I can't find it on the internet. I found it strange though, that the Byzentine Textform agrees with WH and Tischendorf, yet, not with the Majority Text.
Anyway, hope this helps.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ