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Qui discipulus

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Qui discipulus

Postby pmda » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:56 am

In libro suo LLPSI Orberg rogat: Qui discipulus multas res discit?

Ecce Responsum suum: Discipulus prudens et industrius multas res discit.

Estne Responsum meum rectum: Sextus (in hoc libro) multas res discit. Puer prudens et industrius est.

Estne 'Qui' adiectivum demonstrativum?
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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby furrykef » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:05 am

Est. :)
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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:50 am

No. A demonstrative pronoun designates or points out. "Qui/quae/quod" ("what kind of/which?") in this question is an interrogative adjective relative pronoun; "quis/quis/quid" ("who/what?") is a substantive interrogative relative pronoun.
Non est. Demonstrativum pronomen designat vel indicat. Interrogativum pronomen adjectivum et relativum in quaestione est "qui/quae/quod"; substantivum pronomen interrogativum et relativum est "quis/quid" quaestionem introducens.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby pmda » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:56 am

Doh! Thanks Adrianus...of course that's what I meant to to ask...(honest).

So it's an interrogative adjective asking 'Which boy? or What boy? Hence I thought the answer ought to refer to a particular one of the boys in the story and not to an abstract.....and hence I was second guessing Orberg's answer. Do I have this right?
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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:03 am

The question is ambiguous in Latin. Best here I think to translate (in Orberg's context): "What kind/sort/type of pupil?" not "Which particular pupil?" But your response (for "Which particular pupil?") works perfectly, too.
Ambigua latinè quaestio. Hîc meliùs est sic vertere "Cuius generis discipulus?", non "Qui unus?" (secundum contextum apud Orbergensem). Aequè aptum autem tuum responsum (post "Qui unus discipulus?").
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby metrodorus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:47 am

Adriane's description of the issue is spot on. There is also another consideration to keep in mind with qui and quis, in that qui quis also have the peculiarity that the Romans did not like the sound of an s too close after quis, so often shortened it to qui, and the other way around as well, increasing qui to quis, if followed by a vowel. So, the Romans played fast and loose with the substantive/relative interrogatives.

So, there is no way of knowing if qui discipulus is not actually quis discipulus. The number of s sounds in discipulus might perhaps have displeased a Roman ear, leading to the s on quis being dropped off. It certainly sounds less hissy to say qui discipulus, than quis discipulus.
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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby furrykef » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:33 pm

adrianus wrote:No. A demonstrative pronoun designates or points out. "Qui/quae/quod" ("what kind of/which?") in this question is an interrogative adjective relative pronoun; "quis/quis/quid" ("who/what?") is a substantive interrogative relative pronoun.


Oops. You're right that it isn't a demonstrative.

However, I would not call either of them relative pronouns. A relative pronoun is used to form a relative clause, and simple interrogatives such as "Quis clāmat?" or "Quī puer clāmat?" are not relative clauses. "Adjective pronoun" also strikes me as an oxymoron (since "pronoun" is a part of speech, and a word cannot belong to more than one part of speech at a time); I'd call them an "interrogative adjective" and an "interrogative pronoun". (The term "pro-adjective" exists, but I don't think I've heard it until I looked into this today.)

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Re: Qui discipulus

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:59 pm

You're right: they're not. I'm not sure why I said they were relative pronouns, other than I was making a mistake and speaking carelessly. They are substantive interrogative pronoun and adjective interrogative pronoun. It doesn't bother me that one can be adjectival and pronominal.

Rectè dicis: non sunt. Nescio cur dixerim ea relativa esse, separatim quod errabam et negligenter loquebar. Unum substantivum interrogativum pronomen est, alium adjectivum interrogativum pronomen. Quod unum et adjectivum et pronomen est flocci facio.
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