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και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

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και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby GTM » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:32 pm

In 1 John 1:5 we read και εστιν αυτη (and this is)

In 1 John 2:25 we read και αυτη εστιν (and this is)

Is there a difference grammatically? If so what is it that the writer is saying in 1:5 verses 2:25

Thank you for your help

GTM
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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby NateD26 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:05 am

The translators seem to be in agreement that there is no grammatical difference and it reads as
"this is the message/promise" (1:5 & 2:25 accordingly). I suppose you could translate 1:5 as "and there is this message that..." but
as far as I know, ἔστιν is always accented this way at the beginning of the clause and is not necessarily a mark of existential copula,
which here seems more natural to translate it as regular one.
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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby GTM » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:49 pm

NateD26

Thank you for your thoughts.

I am in agreement. It did seem a little bit odd however. Every other time (5 or 6 in 1 John) he used this phrase ("και αυτη εστιν"). Only in 1:56 do we see a different word order.

Overall John seemed to be quite consistent in his writing style and this threw me off a little.

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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby uberdwayne » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:15 am

Hey,

First and foremost, I am no expert in Greek, or in textual criticism (which may relate in some way) so with that disclaimer, here's my 2 cents.

και εστιν αυτη could be a textual variant. If its something that deviates from "normal usage," In this case John's order of εστιν and αυτη, It could be due to variations with the manuscript traditions. You could always check the aparatus and see if the word order is different from manuscript to manuscript. so....

with that being said...
It could be a variant or there may be some significance to it (of which, I would be too new to greek to even know).
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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby GTM » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:57 pm

uberdwayne

First and foremost, I am no expert in Greek,


That makes two of us.

in textual criticism (which may relate in some way) so with that disclaimer, here's my 2 cents.

και εστιν αυτη could be a textual variant. If its something that deviates from "normal usage," In this case John's order of εστιν and αυτη, It could be due to variations with the manuscript traditions. You could always check the aparatus and see if the word order is different from manuscript to manuscript. so....


I have a limited Library when it comes to textual Criticism. But I did look at what I have and there was nothing that addressed this situation. But thank you for the idea. Maybe you or some one else has a better set of Tools when it comes to textual Criticism and can check out your sources.

GTM
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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby uberdwayne » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:53 pm

I have a limited Library when it comes to textual Criticism. But I did look at what I have and there was nothing that addressed this situation. But thank you for the idea. Maybe you or some one else has a better set of Tools when it comes to textual Criticism and can check out your sources.


My tools are fairly limited as well, I can take a look though; it would be fun :D I'm currently posting from work, so I'm limited even more at this point in time. I'll take a look tommorow morning and see if I come up with anything. I also have the bonus of a quiet house in the morning.
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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby GTM » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:17 am

uberdwayne

My tools are fairly limited as well, I can take a look though; it would be fun :D I'm currently posting from work, so I'm limited even more at this point in time. I'll take a look tommorrw morning and see if I come up with anything. I also have the bonus of a quiet house in the morning.


My kids are all grown up an on their own. My house is quiet most if the time except for when my wife gets out her "Honey Do" list.

:lol:

I have a nice Library but am adding to it all the time. I need to get more works on Testual Criticism. All I have right now is Metzger.

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Re: και εστιν αυτη verses και αυτη εστιν

Postby uberdwayne » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:30 pm

except for when my wife gets out her "Honey Do" list


:lol: I know what you mean.

anyway, so, due to my lack of textual critical tools, I have looked up the passages in a number of different Greek texts, and here is what I've come up with:


Here is a list of Greek new testaments which support "Καὶ ἔστιν αὕτη"
Byzentine textform
Tischendorf
Wescott & Hort:

Here is a list that support the alternate order "Καὶ αὕτη ἔστιν"
Majority Text
TR (scrivener and Stephanus)


I couldn't find the text from the NA27, because I Don't readily have one, and its copyrighted, so I can't find it on the internet. I found it strange though, that the Byzentine Textform agrees with WH and Tischendorf, yet, not with the Majority Text.

Anyway, hope this helps.
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