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quisque / quemque (again)

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quisque / quemque (again)

Postby pmda » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:53 am

I went to (some) trouble memorising
1. Relative pronouns and adjectives
2.Interrogative pronouns
3. Interrogative adjectives
4. Indefinite pronouns and
5. Indefinite adjectives.

I'd be interested to know which one of these quisque / quemque derives from. Looking at Betts' TYSL he doesn't allow the form 'quis' in 1., 3., or 5.

My guess (and it really is a guess) is that quisque / quemque is a form of 4. - an indefinite pronoun.

Also in Orberg: LLPSI Ch. XVII. Line: 13 he gives us:

Magister Diodorus recitare desinit et pueros aspicit, qui taciti stant ante suam quisque sellam; nemo eorum dormit.

'qui' is a relative pronoun (masculine nominative pural) and 'quisque' is masculine nominative singular (exact pronoun type to be advised?) and therefore not part of the objectve; Orberg helpfully rearranges the words in the margin to explain: 'quisque ante suam sellam'

That said I'm not claiming to really understand the nuances of these pronouns. Also I'm assuming that quisque / quemque are examples of the types listed above. Whether they are or not I'd be grateful if anyone can - after pointing out my terrible ignorance - guide me to a good overview of their use.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby furrykef » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:36 am

I'm not sure why you keep saying "quisque / quemque" when there's really nothing special about "quemque". You might as well add "cuiusque", "cuique", and "quōque", since they're all forms of quis + que.

My guess (and it really is a guess) is that quisque / quemque is a form of 4. - an indefinite pronoun.

That's the closest match out of the five. I'm not sure if there might be another, more specific term. It doesn't seem terribly indefinite to me...

"Quisque" simply means "each person" or "everybody". It always takes singular agreement, whereas "omnēs" takes plural agreement.

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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby pmda » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:11 am

Though 'each in front of his own' is less definite than identifying a particular sella...I've taken on the task of identifying the exact case / person / gender of every word and with respect to these pronouns I'm interested in identifying what kind of pronoun they are - i.e. what are they doing in the sentence..
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:01 am

furrykef wrote:"Quisque" simply means "each person" or "everybody". It always takes singular agreement, whereas "omnēs" takes plural agreement.

You contrast "quisque" and "omnes", furrykef, for a reason that's not clear. The equivalents are "quisque" and "omnis" for "everyone" or "each" as one person from more than two, and "quique" and "omnes" as a plural number.

Certainly "quisque" is an indefinite pronoun meaning "whoever or whatever it be" (which in English too sounds indefinite) and so "each" and "every".

Nescio cur "quisque" et "omnes" componas, furrykef. Compares sunt haec: "quisque" et "omnis" singulariter è numero trans duo et "quique" et "omnes" pluraliter.

Certè infinitivum pronomen est (quod et anglicè "whoever or whatever it be" infinitum sonat).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby furrykef » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:27 pm

adrianus wrote:
furrykef wrote:"Quisque" simply means "each person" or "everybody". It always takes singular agreement, whereas "omnēs" takes plural agreement.

You contrast "quisque" and "omnes", furrykef, for a reason that's not clear. The equivalents are "quisque" and "omnis" for "everyone" or "each" as one person from more than two, and "quique" and "omnes" as a plural number.


I make the distinction because both "quisque" and "omnēs" are common ways of expressing the same English word ("everyone"), despite taking different number agreement. The other forms don't mean "everyone", as far as I can tell; "omnis" means "all" (generally with uncountable nouns, it seems, but I'd hardly be surprised to find exceptions), and I've yet to encounter "quīque" at all (I guess it's used when you're dealing with groups of plural things?), so I'm not sure what it means. Of course "quisque" literally means "each person", and often that's a fine translation, but there are times where "everyone" is more natural.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:46 pm

You have only to look up the words in the dictionary to understand, furrykef. "Omnis homo" will mean "every person" (where people are countable) and "omnis" "everyone" or "each".
Modò inquiras in dictionarium ut intellegas. "Omnis" enim "quisque" significet vel nomina numerabilia vel innumerabilia spectans.

furrykef wrote:I make the distinction because both "quisque" and "omnēs" are common ways of expressing the same English word ("everyone"), despite taking different number agreement

"Omnes" does not express the English word "everyone" but "all". "Omnis" means "everyone".
Per "omnes" non significatur "omnis".
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby furrykef » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:22 pm

adrianus wrote:"Omnes" does not express the English word "everyone" but "all". "Omnis" means "everyone".

This doesn't seem to match the usage I've seen... :?
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:33 pm

Did you look at the dictionary?
Inquisistine in dictionarium?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby furrykef » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:46 am

I can't find anything in the Lewis & Short entry to corroborate your POV, though maybe I'm not looking hard enough...

Meanwhile, to corroborate mine, I have sentences such as:
Omnēs idem sentiunt.
"Everyone feels the same thing."

Nōn omnēs eadem amant aut eāsdem cupiditātēs studiaque habent.
"Not everyone loves the same things or has the same desires and pursuits.

Omnēs solent mīrārī ea pulcherrima quae Athēnīs vident.
"Everyone is accustomed to marveling at the beautiful things they see in Athens."

Omnēs quī habent aliquid nōn sōlum sapientiae sed etiam sānitātis volunt hanc rem pūblicam salvam esse.
"Everyone who has not only some wisdom but also some sanity want this republic to be safe."

(I believe these were all from Wheelock, though the translations are my own.)

In each case you can also translate it as "all people" and keep the plural agreement, but when translating, one should generally translate the underlying idea, not the exact words, and the underlying idea behind "everyone" and "all people" is often the same.

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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby adrianus » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:56 am

furrykef wrote:Meanwhile, to corroborate mine, I have sentences such as...
(I believe these were all from Wheelock, though the translations are my own.)

In each case you can also translate it as "all people" and keep the plural agreement, but when translating, one should generally translate the underlying idea, not the exact words, and the underlying idea behind "everyone" and "all people" is often the same.


Your evidence is your translations? Don't you see the circularity there, furrykef?
Traductiones tuas ut argumenta profers! Nonnè vides ut circulum in probando praestes.

And if "everyone" and "all people" are the same, why give preference to one?
Si similia sunt, cur unum non alium praefers?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby furrykef » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:26 am

adrianus wrote:Your evidence is your translations? Don't you see the circularity there, furrykef?

I'm afraid I can't see any particular circularity in saying "Both quisque and omnēs can be translated as 'everybody'" and then providing examples to that effect.
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Re: quisque / quemque (again)

Postby adrianus » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:33 am

I just realized that what you're saying is right, furrykef, because, from your Wheelock sentences, I see you're talking just about the substantives, whereas in my head I've been moving from substantives to adjectives with "omnis", and I see from OLD that in the singular only the neuter form of omnis tends to be a used substantively.

I'm sorry everyone for leading us all up the garden path.

Modo animadverti, furrykef, te rectè dicere, quià sententiae latinae apud Wheelock quas das clarè substantivum omnis adjectivi usum spectant. Ego autem in mente meâ substantivum cum adjectivo misceo, quod sic in faciendo secundum OLD singulariter non licet separatim praeter neutrum genus.

Me excusetis qui nos omnes pravis consiliis corruperim.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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