Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
Can anyone help with this sentence. It means - I reckon - Sailors sailing to the west have the sun on their left.
But what is 'naviganti'? It seems to be a participle in the dative singular...?? What is its purpose in this sentence? Is it, in fact an adjective, that describes the Nautae (masculine 1st declension noun) and as such stands in for a verb?
Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am
- furrykef
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 370
- Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:18 am
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
Almost: Sailors sailing to the west have the south to their left.pmda wrote:It means - I reckon - Sailors sailing to the west have the sun on their left.
I have to wonder if this is a mistake for "nāvigantēs". Nāvigantī makes no sense to me either.But what is 'naviganti'? It seems to be a participle in the dative singular...??
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 762
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:52 pm
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
hi pmda, NAVTAE is in the dative singular (not nominative plural), and yes the participle agrees with it. the construction is called the dative of the person judging. have a look at the Caesar BC 3.80.1 quote given in s65 (pg47) of woodcock’s new latin syntax which might make this clearer:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=WmT6mS5v4dAC&pg=PA47
cheers, chad
http://books.google.fr/books?id=WmT6mS5v4dAC&pg=PA47
cheers, chad
- thesaurus
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:44 pm
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
If you want to avoid learning what feels like a new construction, you can think of datives generally as "with respect/reference to whom."cb wrote: the construction is called the dative of the person judging
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
- furrykef
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 370
- Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:18 am
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
Oh, right. It was so "obvious" that nautae was nominative plural that I overlooked the possibility that it wasn't.
Hence it could be translated is: To a sailor sailing west, south is to the left. (Or "As a sailor sailing west would see it...", etc.)
Hence it could be translated is: To a sailor sailing west, south is to the left. (Or "As a sailor sailing west would see it...", etc.)
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
Many thanks to you guys. I find the Dative of interest to be pretty slippery sometimes...hard to spot. Would you agree that the participle 'naviganti' is pretty verbal coming after ad occidentem? I was thrown by the splitting of the participle from the Noun 'Nautae'.
Couldn't the sentence have been just as easily written:
Nautae, (qui) ad occidentem navigat, meridies a sinistra est.
?
regards
Couldn't the sentence have been just as easily written:
Nautae, (qui) ad occidentem navigat, meridies a sinistra est.
?
regards
- Hampie
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:51 pm
- Location: Holmia, Suecia
- Contact:
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
Get used to it. They often split words belonging to eatchother. Especially when a preposition is in account. Multas per gentes = Per multas gentes, for example.pmda wrote:Many thanks to you guys. I find the Dative of interest to be pretty slippery sometimes...hard to spot. Would you agree that the participle 'naviganti' is pretty verbal coming after ad occidentem? I was thrown by the splitting of the participle from the Noun 'Nautae'.
Couldn't the sentence have been just as easily written:
Nautae, (qui) ad occidentem navigat, meridies a sinistra est.
?
regards
Här kan jag i alla fall skriva på svenska, eller hur?
- furrykef
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 370
- Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:18 am
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
I've never put much thought into whether a particular participle is "verbal" or "adjectival". I think the only time it ever matters is the ablative of present participles. The positioning relative to "ad occidentem" has little to do with it, though, because (as Hampie pointed out) Latin writers arrange their words in all sorts of weird ways. And when you get into poetry... *shudder*pmda wrote:Would you agree that the participle 'naviganti' is pretty verbal coming after ad occidentem?
The "quī" would be required, but other than that, I don't see why not.pmda wrote:Couldn't the sentence have been just as easily written:
Nautae, (qui) ad occidentem navigat, meridies a sinistra est.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am
Re: Nautae ad occidentem naviganti meridies a sinistra est.
Many thanks to you all.