Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Are you learning Latin with Latin: An Intensive Course by Moreland and Fleischer? Here's where you can meet other learners using this textbook. Use this board to ask questions and post your work for feedback.
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Talmid
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Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by Talmid »

Wow. It's been almost a year since somebody last posted a topic on this Moreland & Fleisher board! It seems that this textbook isn't anywhere near as popular as Wheelock's based upon the infrequent activity on this discussion forum.

Anyway, myself having just finished reading M&F for the first time, I'm not surprised that most would prefer using Wheelock's over M&F. My impression is that M&F attempts to package everything there is to know about Latin into a begining grammar book. I think much of M&F would be better suited for an intermediate textbook instead--there is just way too much information about the rare, intricate features of syntax, which I felt was just time-consuming and unnecessary for the beginning student just wanting to learn how to translate. Perhaps it would be better marketed as a beginning and intermediate textbook all wrapped up into one.

Hard to imagine the textbook was originally designed for the 4-week summer workshop courses at UC Berkely and Brooklyn College!

Undoubtedly if the student has the discipline to finish this book and work through all the exercises, he will be better equipped than the student who has only completed Wheelock's. But it will take much longer for him to work through M&F than it would Wheelock's.

Well, these are just my thoughts about the matter. Anybody else care to share some impressions?
Last edited by Talmid on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jeleme
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Floyd and Rita's Latin (AKA M&F)

Post by jeleme »

Yikes, I just finished a 5 week Intensive Latin Course using M & F or as I like to call them, Floyd and Rita.

I am afraid that since I put all that Latin into my head so fast, it is going to leave my head equally as fast. Although I probably would have enjoyed a more normal paced class because I might have had a chance to learn more cultural references along with the verbal system, nevertheless I enjoyed the challenge. (Did I just write a 'cum' clause with a 'tamen' in the second clause? I think I did)

Talmid
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Post by Talmid »

jeleme -

Thanks for the reply!

I often wonder what professors must think when students are put through such intensive formats for language courses. I saw the same thing in seminary--we had a course called "Gladiator Greek" since only the tough could survive a brutal 7 weeks of Greek four hours every day. At the end these guys were left relying heavily on charts to get them by the second year Greek courses when the traditionally taught Greek students did not need these charts in the same courses.

Anyway, I'm going back again through M&F and finding that I'm learning more and more each time since it certainly did not stick the first time through.

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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by procrastinator »

jeleme,

It's funny because I've just been reading a book on memory and it specifically mentions the feeling you're describing, where you crammed for the course and now feel as though it's floating around in your head and about to fall out. The book says that a good way of consolidating what you know is to overlearn, i.e. keep reviewing and testing yourself.

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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by procrastinator »

Just to comment on the difficulty of M&F. I tried reading it to learn Latin by myself after having completed some chapters of Wheelock's, but found that too much material was presented in each chapter. I gave up at chapter 3, where the whole passive system was shown, complete with perfect tenses, the imperfect, and future as well as the present tense. M&F did give a good overview though, which is something that Wheelock doesn't do because it feeds you little pieces at a time (you can look at the tables at the end of the book though if you want).

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Jefferson Cicero
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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

Sometimes I think that M&F is best for those who have already been through Wheelock or some other simpler introduction. If you're going to use it as your primary introduction, definitely take some extra time with it.
'Greek had to be simplified, and Latin had to be replaced with Italian, because we barbarians stole so many Greek and Latin words.'

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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by nspointer »

I am 73 y.o. & 2-3 years ago decided I wanted to learn Latin having studied it for 3 years in my youth. I chose M & F & struggled just as others have described. However I persisted & adopted the following scheme which accommodates my less-than-youthful memory; I work systematically through each chapter, do the exercises & move on to the next chapter. When I get to the end of the book I start all over again! I move at my own pace, sometimes taking 3-4 days to finish a chapter. Each time I go through the book again I find that a little more has lodged itself somewhere in my brain & I rejoice in the small accomplishment. I guess it is as much a meditative exercise as anything else but it leaves me satisfied. And I am unencumbered by time constraints which allows me to enjoy the study even more.
One last thought: I have used the U. of Toronto answer key & despite some errors there have found it useful. However I always struggle when I get to chapter 15, by which time the going is getting harder, because answers are provided for only a small section of the exercises.
Onward & upward!

Heidi
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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by Heidi »

How does one get hold of the Univ of Toronto answer key for M & F ? Or any other answer answer key for M & F ?

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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by dlb »

Agreed, it is a much harder book than Wheelocks.
I was unaware of it until I saw an ad for the intensive class in NY and its usage in that class. I read many reviews of the book and purchased a copy in December.
After 8 years of studying Wheelocks, & D'Ooge I enjoy the challenges it presents - basically I enjoy the book and do not regret having purchased it.
I plan on completing it then returning to Wheelock to finish the last 12 chapters.
Deus me ducet, non ratio.
Observito Quam Educatio Melius Est.

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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by lshowman »

After being away from the language for a while and as a former Latin beginning and intermediate instructor based in a firm knowledge of grammar and syntax but not an advanced ability to read either classic or medieval literature, I have found M&L to be an excellent review and push to grasp the way the language constructs thought and meaning.

By the way, if you Google Floyd Moreland (I can't share the link because I don't have enough posts yet) you will find the unfortunate, some might say tragic, story of the loss of his home and life's work in Hurricane Sandy.

Thomas Collins
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Re: Moreland & Fleisher: too tough?

Post by Thomas Collins »

Talmid wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:27 pm Wow. It's been almost a year since somebody last posted a topic on this Moreland & Fleisher board! It seems that this textbook isn't anywhere near as popular as Wheelock's based upon the infrequent activity on this discussion forum.

Anyway, myself having just finished reading M&F for the first time, I'm not surprised that most would prefer using Wheelock's over M&F. My impression is that M&F attempts to package everything there is to know about Latin into a begining grammar book. I think much of M&F would be better suited for an intermediate textbook instead--there is just way too much information about the rare, intricate features of syntax, which I felt was just time-consuming and unnecessary for the beginning student just wanting to learn how to translate. Perhaps it would be better marketed as a beginning and intermediate textbook all wrapped up into one.

Hard to imagine the textbook was originally designed for the 4-week summer workshop courses at UC Berkely and Brooklyn College!

Undoubtedly if the student has the discipline to finish this book and work through all the exercises, he will be better equipped than the student who has only completed Wheelock's. But it will take much longer for him to work through M&F than it would Wheelock's.

Well, these are just my thoughts about the matter. Anybody else care to share some impressions?

I took the UC class, summer of 1978, IIRC. It was a 10 week course, although we finished the M&F text in four. The next week was mid-terms, and then we went into The Aeneid (required) and electives for the final four weeks before finals.

It was brutal, 9:00-4:00 every day, although we were usually dismissed around 3:00. A chapter a night, replete (love Latin) with about 30 vocabulary items, and some kind of grammatical lesson. I think I finished at the bottom of my class with a B+. Many of the students were comparative lit students, who needed credits in another language. The course was worth 15 semester units.

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