Memorising Lists to Learn?

[Vexx]

Hi,

I'm going to be going through a few different sources to learn Latin, but since my focus is to read Latin, what is your opinion on memorising a most occurring frequency list?
By this i mean http://users.erols.com/whitaker/freqrec.htm which has the top ~1500 used Latin words that make up about 82% of all Literature they used to make this list.
It seems possible for me to learn around 15 a day and finish the entire list in just over 3 months.

If i did this, along side my other sources like 'So you really want to learn Latin' and 'Lingua Latina', will i be able to read most Latin text very well?
Is this possible to do? Will i reach a high level of reading quite quickly?

What are your thoughts!

Thanks

Vexx

[adrianus]

I think not "quite quickly", Vexx, but it all helps. You cannot avoid hard work in learning. The trick is to love it.
Non celeriùs puto, ô qui vexat (at non verè vexas, immò adversúm), at omnia talia te adjuvabunt. Pensum discendi laboriosum effugere non potes. Ars est laborem amare.

[lauragibbs]

I am a believer in frequency lists, and it is frustrating that so many textbooks do not pay attention to frequency lists in their own vocabulary production. Biblical Greek textbooks, by contrast, are usually very self-conscious in adhering to frequency lists since people learning Biblical Greek often want to start reading right away in the Bible if possible (Croy's Biblical Greek textbook, for example, does a great job of integrating vocabulary frequency with morphology).

I've got a blog based on a list I did of the 366 most frequent Latin words - I provide some notes about each word, along with Latin sayings and phrases so that you can read the word in context. Learning words out of context is not always effective, but if you can find a saying or proverb which uses that word and memorize that saying or proverb, I think you stand a better chance of remember the word itself. Often the proverbs are sayings are just two or three words long, so they are not a big burden to read and learn.

Here is the blog - I try to publish there every other day or so.
http://verbosum.blogspot.com/

The most recent word was ingenium - here is the little essay on ingenium:
http://verbosum.blogspot.com/2010/09/to ... enium.html

Just as an example of the lists of phrases and proverbs, here's the list for ingenium - if there is just one of the phrases that jumps out at you which is easy for you to understand and connect with personally, you could memorize that along with the word.

Egestas ingeniosa.
Ingeniosa gula est.
Etiam stultis acuit ingenium fames.
Pinguis venter caret ingenium.
Necessitas dat ingenium.
Necessitas largitrix ingenii.
Non vi, sed ingenio et arte.
Alit lectio ingenium.
Aemulatio alit ingenia.
Ingenium industria alitur.
Aerugo animi robigo ingenii.
Ingenium mala saepe movent.
Ingenium superat vires.
Ex tuo ingenio alios iudicas.
Suum quisque noscat ingenium.
Vinum animi speculum, ingenii fontes.
Lupus pilum, non ingenium mutat.
Pilos, non ingenium mutat vulpes.
Immortalis est ingenii memoria.
Vivitur ingenio, cetera mortis erunt.
Praecocia ingenia cito deficiunt.
Summa ingenia in occulto latent.
Sub sordido pallio ingenium saepe latet.

[Hampie]

Hi,

I'm going to be going through a few different sources to learn Latin, but since my focus is to read Latin, what is your opinion on memorising a most occurring frequency list?
By this i mean http://users.erols.com/whitaker/freqrec.htm which has the top ~1500 used Latin words that make up about 82% of all Literature they used to make this list.
It seems possible for me to learn around 15 a day and finish the entire list in just over 3 months.

If i did this, along side my other sources like 'So you really want to learn Latin' and 'Lingua Latina', will i be able to read most Latin text very well?
Is this possible to do? Will i reach a high level of reading quite quickly?

What are your thoughts!

Thanks

Vexx

If there is a special author you're planning to read, Perseus Hopper has a vocabulary tool, which makes frequency lists based upon texts of your own choice. I think you can add as many of them (from their collection) as you like. Those lists come with clickable vocabulary where you get gender and vowel quantity too – so you do not have to use a dictionary.

[edonnelly]

I think this is an outstanding list, and I have recommended it to many people in the past. It's from a 1930's doctoral dissertation. I even made a little app for my phone that will quiz me on it, and if you have a windows mobile phone I'd be happy to send it to you. I also have a little online tool (http://www.edonnelly.com/latin/vocabBasic.html) that will test you on it, sorted by the categories. It's pretty basic in how it functions, but it's ok.

[Vexx]

Thank you all!
Wow that is awesome to hear people think it's a good idea.

Laura- I will probably use your 366 list to begin! And then memorise the rest, this is going to be helpful!
Edonnelly- This is also going to be so useful, will definitely use this along to way to test myself. I can even learn from that, since i'm just going to try and understand/read Latin and not having to reproduce it!

So is doing a set a day, plus also doing So you think you can learn Latin and Lingua Latin going to get me to a high level after a few months? I will be on holidays so i have time to dedicate to study. After i finish the word lists, should i jump into starting to read texts like Harrius Potter before starting a few classics? Or should i try and finish my books mentioned above, which i can hopefully try and finish after a few months also.

[lauragibbs]

The Latin translation of Harrius Potter is fun to read, but it will be a while before you can read that - you'll want to start with some simpler prose first to build up to that. Luckily, there are lots of free old Latin readers at GoogleBooks that are written with Latin students in mind; those are a good place to start. They have some fun stories in them, too - like the Gradatim, which contains the voyages of Sindbad told in Latin, for example, along with all kinds of other stories:
Gradatim: http://tinyurl.com/oblnyc

Here are some other good ones:
Aditus Faciliores http://tinyurl.com/382xeed
Scalae Primae http://tinyurl.com/35eyy4q
First Translation Book http://tinyurl.com/2whfxe6

I have a list of some other easy Latin readers here:
http://www.delicious.com/lkgbooks/latin+reader

These are books designed to be used after you have finished a basic Latin textbook (if you are using Lingua Latina, that is great preparation; it is my personal favorite of all the Latin textbooks). Those easy Latin readers are great because they break things up into small pieces and adapt the language for beginning and intermediate students - after you have made some progress in Lingua Latina, you can start looking through those readers to see if there are stories you want to read: the more you read, the faster you will progress! Then, after you get used to reading Latin that is simple and short, you'll be ready to go on to the next level. The trick is to find things you enjoy reading at every level - it takes time to learn a new language, especially a language like Latin whose grammar is different from English, but if you can find things you enjoy reading all along the way, you won't mind the time because it will be fun.

[Vexx]

Thank you so much!

I will definitely be going through these first after LL and learning some of that word list.
Do you think i still need to use a more grammar based method like 'So you really want to learn Latin' or 'Wheelocks' in addition to LL I and some word lists before reading those text? Or are these unneeded and i can just jump in?
I will also want to attempt LL2 after the entire word list is memorised!

[lauragibbs]

Every student learns differently, so the trick is to find something you enjoy using - if you are enjoying it, you will spend time on it, and the more time you can spend, the faster you will progress. Spending a little time every day is preferable to just a couple of times a week. So whatever combination of book(s) and materials that you can use that will keep you motivated to work on Latin every day will be best for you. There is no just one method that is objectively the best - which is why it is so sad for teachers in the Latin classroom: you have the luxury of choosing whatever works for you!

[Vexx]

Every student learns differently, so the trick is to find something you enjoy using - if you are enjoying it, you will spend time on it, and the more time you can spend, the faster you will progress. Spending a little time every day is preferable to just a couple of times a week. So whatever combination of book(s) and materials that you can use that will keep you motivated to work on Latin every day will be best for you. There is no just one method that is objectively the best - which is why it is so sad for teachers in the Latin classroom: you have the luxury of choosing whatever works for you!

Awesome, thanks for the replies!

Goal: I want to try and finish LL pars I and II (at least half of II), 2/3 of the So You Think You Can Learn Latin course (first two books) and memorise close to the ~1500 words in three months!
Hopefully I can achieve this, it's basically 2 pages of the course/day, probably will finish it quicker though, and doing 5-6 pages of LL per day getting half way through the second book. I will be memorising 20-50 words per day too, so it will maybe make things go a bit quicker over time!
I'm starting this in ages :\ But sounds like it will work, i'm glad i came across the word memorising idea then.

Learning Italian alongside, will this may things easier?

[Hampie]

Every student learns differently, so the trick is to find something you enjoy using - if you are enjoying it, you will spend time on it, and the more time you can spend, the faster you will progress. Spending a little time every day is preferable to just a couple of times a week. So whatever combination of book(s) and materials that you can use that will keep you motivated to work on Latin every day will be best for you. There is no just one method that is objectively the best - which is why it is so sad for teachers in the Latin classroom: you have the luxury of choosing whatever works for you!

Awesome, thanks for the replies!

Goal: I want to try and finish LL pars I and II (at least half of II), 2/3 of the So You Think You Can Learn Latin course (first two books) and memorise close to the ~1500 words in three months!
Hopefully I can achieve this, it's basically 2 pages of the course/day, probably will finish it quicker though, and doing 5-6 pages of LL per day getting half way through the second book. I will be memorising 20-50 words per day too, so it will maybe make things go a bit quicker over time!
I'm starting this in ages :\ But sounds like it will work, i'm glad i came across the word memorising idea then.

Learning Italian alongside, will this may things easier?

You could try Anki, it's a flashcard program, and there is a ready-made deck for LLPSIFA. You cand chose yourself how many words a day you want to learn in the program.

[Vexx]

^ Thanks.

Another question:
Is it more effective to learn all 1500 words over time through a word list and a program like Anki, or is it better to use this time to go through Latin literature and look up, write down and memorise every word that is unknown? So you end up knowing how to read one work of literature perfectly, before moving on to the next. This definitely seems like a more interesting way to learn, but perhaps less efficient?
I would of course do this after finishing a grammar course & going through LL.

[Hampie]

^ Thanks.

Another question:
Is it more effective to learn all 1500 words over time through a word list and a program like Anki, or is it better to use this time to go through Latin literature and look up, write down and memorise every word that is unknown? So you end up knowing how to read one work of literature perfectly, before moving on to the next. This definitely seems like a more interesting way to learn, but perhaps less efficient?
I would of course do this after finishing a grammar course & going through LL.

Different methods works for different people. The only way to find out is to try yourself.

[furrykef]

Frankly, I've never bothered with memorizing word lists at all (well, not with Latin... I tried it with Spanish) and instead I simply put full sentences into Anki. So far I've used Wheelock and Lingua Latina I as my primary sources for sentences, though I do have some from other sources as well.

[Vexx]

^ furry- what sort of sentences are they? are they all completely different from each other or are they sharing is similarities "The ball is red", "The ball is blue" "The cat is blue" ?
I can imagine it's far more difficult to memorise sentences, but i would perhaps only need use for this if i wanted to speak/write the language and maybe not just learn to read as i can figure out the 'in between' words from context or if i memorise a list of them rather then get confused with whole sentences, don't you get confused this way? or perhaps i'd need to be a bit more advanced if i wanted to memorise sentences?

[furrykef]

^ furry- what sort of sentences are they? are they all completely different from each other or are they sharing is similarities "The ball is red", "The ball is blue" "The cat is blue" ?

There are very few sentences in my deck that vary by only one or two words.

I can imagine it's far more difficult to memorise sentences

One might think that, but my experience has shown me that it's really not much more difficult -- and any difficulty is more than made up for by being constantly exposed to how sentences "feel" by seeing them all the time. It makes reading Latin (or indeed any language) considerably easier.

- Kef

[rustymason]

After a beginner book, start reading. When you come to a word you do not know, write its forms and definition(s) in the margin or a notebook. Review the vocabulary words by themselves and in context every day before your new daily reading, enough so that you never have to look up that word again. Frequency takes care of itself.

[Vexx]

Thanks for the replies all.
I'm going to learn some mnemonic techniques to help with memorising the word lists when i start later in the year.