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Esse aut esse non...

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Esse aut esse non...

Postby jamesbath » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:34 pm

Salvete,

Esse aut esse non, illa quaestio est = To be or not to be, that is the question.

Is the Latin correct in the above equation?

Gratias vobis ago.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby Hampie » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:46 pm

Esse aut nón esse, quod est quaesítum.

Is my try, though I cannot find a word in any dictionary that gives me a good word for 'question' :/...
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby furrykef » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:15 pm

jamesbath wrote:Esse aut esse non, illa quaestio est

I haven't seen "non" appear after a verb instead of before it, but I've yet to read much 'real' Latin.

Hampie wrote:though I cannot find a word in any dictionary that gives me a good word for 'question' :/

Cassell's suggests this for question: "quaestio, rogatio (rarer), interrogatum". It then gives several examples with quaestio: questionem [pro]ponere (to pose a question); "magna questio est".

It goes on to say that the word is often better than a verb, e.g., to ask a question = [inter]rogare; the question now is = nunc id quaeritur; etc. -- perhaps "illud quaeritur" for "that is the question"?

But, of course, there is usually more than one right way to say something in any given language.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby Imber Ranae » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:30 am

This is an indirect question, so an infinitive would not be appropriate in Latin. In the original English the infinitive shows obligation, but it's being used in a question, i.e. asking whether one ought to be [read: live] or not.

Thus I would translate it: Vivendum sit necne sit, id quaeritur.

Cf. Cicero: ...fiat necne fiat, id quaeritur. "Whether it happens or does not happen, that is the question."
[de Divinatione liber I, § 86]
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby adrianus » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:25 pm

That's lovely, I think, Imber Ranae.
Id valdè placet, Imber Ranae, meâ sententiâ.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby jamesbath » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:27 pm

Imber Ranae wrote:This is an indirect question, so an infinitive would not be appropriate in Latin. In the original English the infinitive shows obligation, but it's being used in a question, i.e. asking whether one ought to be [read: live] or not.

Thus I would translate it: Vivendum sit necne sit, id quaeritur.

Cf. Cicero: ...fiat necne fiat, id quaeritur. "Whether it happens or does not happen, that is the question."
[de Divinatione liber I, § 86]


Very nice, I think. I assume the gerundive "Vivendum" qualifies each option in the phrase "sit necne sit". But I wonder why you didn't translate that as "sim necne sim". Is not Hamlet wondering what he himself, in the first person, should do?
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby jamesbath » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:31 pm

furrykef wrote:
jamesbath wrote:Esse aut esse non, illa quaestio est

I haven't seen "non" appear after a verb instead of before it, but I've yet to read much 'real' Latin.


Thanks for pointing that out.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby adrianus » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:39 pm

jamesbath wrote:But I wonder why you [Imber Ranae] didn't translate that as "sim necne sim". Is not Hamlet wondering what he himself, in the first person, should do?

Vivo is intransitive. It can't have an direct objective, so you can't have "vivendus sim" "whether I should be lived",—which doesn't, in any case, make sense. Rather "Mihi vivendum est" = "I should live" ("mihi vivendum sit" as an indirect question) ,—and "mihi" can be omitted and still understood.

Intransitivum verbum est "vivo", id est, objecto directo non conjungitur, quâre non exstat "vivendus sim" (quod jam nugas dicit). Immò "mihi vivendum est" dicendum est ("mihi vivendum sit" ut quaestio obliqua), in quo "mihi" pronomen ut res levis omittatur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby Kasper » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:22 pm

I appreciate there is no gerundive for 'esse', but Mr H did not say that 'to live or not to live' is the question. Is there no better translation for 'to be'? (I can't think of any, but my knowledge is most limited.)
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby furrykef » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:46 pm

Kasper wrote:Mr H did not say that 'to live or not to live' is the question.

Mr. H also wasn't speaking in Latin. ;) Sometimes ideas cannot be translated literally. Whether this is such a case or not, I don't know, but it's a possibility one must always be prepared to accept.
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby Kasper » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:51 am

Hi FK,

as a dutchman living in Australia, I am all too familiar with the fact that not all ideas and expressions can be translated literally from one to another. It is a daily reality for me, and one I wholeheartedly accept.

The question is whether there is no better word, or method, to translate 'to be' than by rendering it as 'to live'. I am equally willing to accept, wholeheartedly, that there may be not; but I thought I'd pose the question.

K
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Esse aut esse non...

Postby adrianus » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:20 am

to be = esse, existere, fieri, fore
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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