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the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

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the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Postby REGUMREX69 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:34 pm

[size=150]I am a beginner in Greek, I know Latin better.
Would somebody be kind enough to tell me what is
the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?[/size]
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Re: the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Postby jaihare » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:21 am

REGUMREX69 wrote:I am a beginner in Greek, I know Latin better.
Would somebody be kind enough to tell me what is
the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Well, first, what does the Latin mean in English? ;)
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:04 pm

It means "at first light".

There are a few Greek-Latin dictionaries online at google books, and looking it up here, it gives ἅμα τῇ ἡμέρᾳ.
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Re: the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Postby cb » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:13 pm

hi, just to add to what modus said, it depends on what you mean exactly by PRIMA LVCE, because the greeks seemed to discern at least three successive phases of light appearing in the morning, with sunrise (ἡ τοῦ ἡλίου ἀνατολή) being only the third phase. i couldn’t read all the texts on this tonight and so I could well be wrong below, but this at least summarises what i read tonight:

phase 1 - pre-sunrise - ὁ βαθὺς ὄρθρος begins in the last stage of the night when it is still dark and obscure but there is a bit of the light just appearing. ὁ βαθὺς ὄρθρος also = the homeric phrase ἡ ἀμφιλύκη νύξ:

- scholion on iliad book 7, verse 433: [ἀμφιλύκη νύξ] ὁ βαθὺς ὄρθρος, τὸ μὴ καθαρὸν φῶς, ἀλλ' ἔτι σκοτῶδες, παρὰ τὴν λύγην, ὅ ἐστι σκιάν.

phase 2 – still pre-sunrise - ἡ ἠώς begins after the end of ὁ βαθὺς ὄρθρος / ἀμφιλύκη νύξ (i.e. phase 1), as per Iliad book 7, verse 433:

- iliad book 7, verse 433: Ἦμος δ' οὔτ' ἄρ πω ἠώς, ἔτι δ' ἀμφιλύκη νύξ,

ἡ ἠώς nevertheless begins before ἡ τοῦ ἡλίου ἀνατολή (i.e. phase 3), as discussed by porphyry in his Ὁμηρικῶν Ζητημάτων in his analysis of Iliad book 7, verse 433: porphyry notes there that the last line of book 2 of the odyssey says that telemachus sailed all night and during ἡ ἠώς, and then the first line of book 3 says that the sun rose (i.e. in chronological sequence, the sun rose in book 3 after the beginning of ἡ ἠώς in the last line of book 2):

- porphyry in his Ὁμηρικῶν Ζητημάτων, pgs 300-301: ἠῶ δὲ λέγει νῦν τὸν ὄρθρον καὶ τὸ πρὸ ἀνατολῆς ἡλίου πεφωτισμένον διάστημα· ὅτι γὰρ καὶ τοῦτο τὸ διάστημα λέγει ἠῶ, δηλοῖ ἐπὶ τῆς νεὼς τοῦ Τηλεμάχου. εἰπών· <παννυχίη μὲν ἄρ' ἥγε καὶ ἠῶ πεῖρε κέλευθον> (β 434), εἶτα εἰπὼν <ἠέλιος δ' ἀνόρουσε> (γ 1).

phase 3 is sunrise (ἡ τοῦ ἡλίου ἀνατολή).

One other key term is, ὁ ὄρθρος, which seems to be the period beginning at the start of phase 1 (i.e. ὁ βαθὺς ὄρθρος) and ending at the start of phase 3 (i.e. ἡ τοῦ ἡλίου ἀνατολή). some quotes for this:

- Ammonius in his Περὶ ὁμοίων καὶ διαφόρων λέξεων : ὄρθος μὲν γὰρ ἡ πρὸ ἀνατολῆς ἡλίου ὥρα καθ' ἣν ἀναστάντες ἐξ ὕπνου ὀρθοὶ γινόμεθα…

- Ptolemaeus in his Περὶ διαφορᾶς λέξεων κατὰ στοιχεῖον: ὄρθρος μὲν γάρ ἐστιν ἡ πρὸ ἀνατολῆς ὥρα, πρωῒ δὲ ἡ μετὰ τὴν ἀνατολήν.

Now coming to your phrase PRIMA LVCE, my stephanus latin-latin dictionary gives as the equivalent of CVM PRIMA LVCE: QVVM PRIMVM SOL COEPERIT ILLVCESCERE. I am not sure from this whether it refers to the beginning of phase 1, 2 or 3. therefore to put PRIMA LVCE into greek depends on what you mean:

- if you mean the beginning of phase 1 (i.e. the last stage of night, when it first begins to brighten but is still generally dark) you could say for PRIMA LVCE: ἅμα ὄρθρῳ, e.g. thucydides 3.112.3: καὶ ἅμα ὄρθρῳ ἐπιπίπτει τοῖς Ἀμπρακιώταις ἔτι ἐν ταῖς εὐναῖς καὶ οὐ προῃσθημένοις τὰ γεγενημένα,

- if you mean the beginning of phase 2 (i.e still pre-sunrise, but brighter than phase 1) you could say for PRIMA LVCE: ἕωθεν, e.g.Plato, Phaedo, s59d: ἀεὶ γὰρ δὴ καὶ τὰς πρόσθεν ἡμέρας εἰώθεμεν φοιτᾶν καὶ ἐγὼ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι παρὰ τὸν Σωκράτη, συλλεγόμενοι ἕωθεν εἰς τὸ δικαστήριον ἐν ᾧ καὶ ἡ δίκη ἐγένετο.

- if you mean the beginning of phase 3 (i.e. sunrise), you could say for PRIMA LVCE: ἅμα τῷ ἡλίῳ ἀνιόντι or ἅμα ἡλίῳ ἀνατέλλοντι, e.g. Herodotus 8.64: Ἡμέρη τε ἐγίνετο καὶ ἅμα τῷ ἡλίῳ ἀνιόντι σεισμὸς ἐγένετο ἔν τε τῇ γῇ καὶ τῇ θαλάσσῃ; Xenophon Hist., Anabasis, s2.3.1: τότε δὲ ἅμα ἡλίῳ ἀνατέλλοντι κήρυκας ἔπεμψε περὶ σπονδῶν.

cheers, chad :)
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Re: the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Postby REGUMREX69 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:21 pm

Sorry about the delay. Thanks a million for the great help.
I've got to learn a lot more.
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Re: the Greek equivalent for the Latin "prima luce"?

Postby REGUMREX69 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:39 pm

I would like to buy an inexpensive one volume Greek-English & English-Greek dictionary
with examples etc. Not a used one.

Please advise me.

Thanks in advance,
GSG
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