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Pl. Ap. 30d2-4

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Pl. Ap. 30d2-4

Postby NateD26 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:26 pm


ἀλλὰ ταῦτα οὗτος μὲν ἴσως οἴεται καὶ ἄλλος τίς που μεγάλα κακά,
ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὐκ οἴομαι, ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον ποιεῖν ἃ οὑτοσὶ νῦν ποιεῖ,
ἄνδρα ἀδίκως ἐπιχειρεῖν ἀποκτεινύναι.

I know that μᾶλλον can be accompanied by the positive, as here with μεγάλα κακά.
But shouldn't there be ἢ, than, before the thing it is compared to?
Perhaps there is an Attic crasis for ἢ ἃ = ἃ, or maybe it is implied and omitted.

Another question: ἄλλος τις is the subject of ποιεῖν with οἴεται implied, right?
Nate.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 30d2-4

Postby IreneY » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:15 pm

ἀλλὰ ταῦτα οὗτος μὲν ἴσως οἴεται καὶ ἄλλος τίς που μεγάλα κακά,
ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὐκ οἴομαι, ἀλλὰ πολὺ μᾶλλον ποιεῖν ἃ οὑτοσὶ νῦν ποιεῖ,
ἄνδρα ἀδίκως ἐπιχειρεῖν ἀποκτεινύναι.

I know that μᾶλλον can be accompanied by the positive, as here with μεγάλα κακά.
But shouldn't there be ἢ, than, before the thing it is compared to?
Perhaps there is an Attic crasis for ἢ ἃ = ἃ, or maybe it is implied and omitted.

Another question: ἄλλος τις is the subject of ποιεῖν with οἴεται implied, right?

Hello Nate,

Let's see.
a) the "μᾶλλον" construction: It's the exact same as "While it's bad to steal from someone, it's much worse to shoot him"
In both cases a "than doing A" is of course inferred. In our particular case the whole sentence could be (as usual on the fly) "[οίομαι] α ουτοσί νυν ποιεί [είναι] πολύ μάλλον κακά ή τούτων" or something like that. Or, in English "I don't think those are great evils but I think that what he is now doing is much greater evil than those". There's also the possibility it's a case that doesn't translate all that well of "I rather think" but, apart from coming up with the full-fledged sentence there's no real difference.
If "ἃ" stood for " ἢ" the comparison would be reversed wouldn't it?

b) "ἀλλὰ ταῦτα οὗτος μὲν ἴσως οἴεται καὶ ἄλλος τίς που μεγάλα κακά"
Actually "άλλος" is the subject of "οίεται". I, personally, think that the infinitive missing is "είναι"

Τούτος και άλλος τις (που)
ίσως οίεται ταυτα μεγάλα κακά.

"[..] he and someone else somewhere may think that these are great evils but I don't think so. What he's now doing, trying to put a man to death unjustly, is a much greater evil"
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Re: Pl. Ap. 30d2-4

Postby NateD26 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:54 pm

I see now that I completely misunderstood the sentence.
But how does ποιεῖν fit in your translation? You said that there's an implied inf. εἶναι without translating this infinitive:
    What he's now doing, trying to put a man to death unjustly, is a much greater evil.

Maybe it is an articular inf. as the "acc. subject" with no article written, (τὸ) ποιεῖν:
    (But I think that) doing what he's now doing, ..., is a much greater evil.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 30d2-4

Postby IreneY » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:26 pm

Hello again,

I apologize for leaving ποιείν out! :oops:
The sentence should be (if we follow a SVO construction which, in this case, is just awkward)

οίομαιι ποιείν (α ουτοσί ποιεί) είναι πολύ μάλλον κακόν

The infinitive doesn't need an article. Just woke up (long story) so brain's no fully operational but I'm sure there must be something or another in grammar books on this subject.

Again, my apologies.
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