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Greek Verbs

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Greek Verbs

Postby Lex » Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:46 pm

I have a few questions about verbs, because while writing my vocabulary / flashcard program, I have gotten quite a bit ahead of myself. So...

1) Are there *ANY* verbs that have 1st person dual conjugations? Smyth and Betts & Henry give me the idea that there are not, but I want to make sure. Databases don't handle exceptions very well, so if there are *any* verbs that have 1st person duals, I need to know about it.

2) Following is a list of all possible combinations of voice, mood and tense in Greek verbs. Am I missing anything? Is there *ANY* verb that has a combination that I missed?

Thanks in advance.

****************
ACTIVE VOICE
============

Present Indicative Active
Present Subjunctive Active
Present Optative Active
Present Imperative Active
Present Infinitive Active
Present Active Participle

Imperfect Indicative Active

Future Indicative Active
Future Optative Active
Future Infinitive Active
Future Active Participle

Aorist Indicative Active
Aorist Subjunctive Active
Aorist Optative Active
Aorist Imperative Active
Aorist Infinitive Active
Aorist Active Participle

Perfect Indicative Active
Perfect Subjunctive Active
Perfect Optative Active
Perfect Imperative Active
Perfect Infinitive Active
Perfect Active Participle

Pluperfect Indicative Active

MIDDLE VOICE
============

Present Indicative Middle
Present Subjunctive Middle
Present Optative Middle
Present Imperative Middle
Present Infinitive Middle
Present Middle Participle

Imperfect Indicative Middle

Future Indicative Middle
Future Optative Middle
Future Infinitive Middle
Future Middle Participle

Aorist Indicative Middle
Aorist Subjunctive Middle
Aorist Optative Middle
Aorist Imperative Middle
Aorist Infinitive Middle
Aorist Middle Participle

Perfect Indicative Middle
Perfect Subjunctive Middle
Perfect Optative Middle
Perfect Imperative Middle
Perfect Infinitive Middle
Perfect Middle Participle

Pluperfect Indicative Middle

PASSIVE VOICE
=============

Present Indicative Passive
Present Subjunctive Passive
Present Optative Passive
Present Imperative Passive
Present Infinitive Passive
Present Passive Participle

Imperfect Indicative Passive

Future Indicative Passive
Future Optative Passive
Future Infinitive Passive
Future Passive Participle

Aorist Indicative Passive
Aorist Subjunctive Passive
Aorist Optative Passive
Aorist Imperative Passive
Aorist Infinitive Passive
Aorist Passive Participle

Perfect Indicative Passive
Perfect Subjunctive Passive
Perfect Optative Passive
Perfect Imperative Passive
Perfect Infinitive Passive
Perfect Passive Participle

Pluperfect Indicative Passive

Future Perfect Indicative Passive
Future Perfect Optative Passive
Future Perfect Infinitive Passive
Future Perfect Passive Participle
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Postby Emma_85 » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:30 pm

What about all the imperatives? I always learn them, too.
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Postby klewlis » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:32 pm

Emma_85 wrote:What about all the imperatives? I always learn them, too.


The imperatives are in the list.... :)
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Postby Paul » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:40 pm

Hey Lex,

I actually think that the first person dual does crop up once or twice somewhere in Homer. But I will check when I get home.

I too have written this kind of vocabulary program. I would recommend that you allow for second aorists, second perfects, and second pluperfects.

Cordially,

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Postby Emma_85 » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:58 pm

:oops: didn't see those imperatives...
You'll also have to allow for two aorist mediums if you want to use for stupid verbs like istemi, too :P .
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Postby Lex » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:39 pm

Paul wrote:I actually think that the first person dual does crop up once or twice somewhere in Homer. But I will check when I get home.


Thanks.

Paul wrote:I too have written this kind of vocabulary program. I would recommend that you allow for second aorists, second perfects, and second pluperfects.


Ok, this second aorist, etc., stuff is way beyond my level. So I need to ask some questions. Can a verb have both a first and a second aorist (perfect, pluperfect) form? Or is this something where a verb can fall into one category or the other, but not both?
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Postby Emma_85 » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:40 pm

I'm afraid there are some verbs that have two forms, like kalew's future is either kalesw or kalw (sorry, just can't be bothered with the greek font right now). Same with exw, it also has two different forms for the future.
Deidw's perfect is either dedoika or dedia and euriskw's perfect can be eurhka or hurhka (not a huge difference, though).
There are other examples...
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Postby Lex » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:09 pm

Emma_85 wrote:I'm afraid there are some verbs that have two forms, like kalew's future is either kalesw or kalw (sorry, just can't be bothered with the greek font right now). Same with exw, it also has two different forms for the future.
Deidw's perfect is either dedoika or dedia and euriskw's perfect can be eurhka or hurhka (not a huge difference, though).
There are other examples...


Are they interchangable? Or are they used in different ways?
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Postby annis » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:21 pm

Lex wrote:Are they interchangable? Or are they used in different ways?


They are not usually interchangeable. Generally the first aorist (or perfect) will be transitive or causative and the second will be intransitive.

So [face=spionic]e)/bhn[/face] "I went", but [face=spionic]e)/bhsa[/face] "I made (someone) go."

Do you plan to focus on a particular dialect of Greek? There are some verbs that have three separate aorist forms in Epic. For example, [face=spionic]kixa/nw[/face] "come upon, arrive at" has one first aorist [face=spionic]e)kixhsa/mhn[/face], one thematic second aorist [face=spionic]e)/kixon[/face], and one athematic (or root) aorist [face=spionic]e)ki/xhn[/face].

Regarding the 1st.dual verb forms, Monro says there is one possible example in the Iliad (23.485), but it may be grammarians getting imaginative. West rejects it from his recent Iliad edition. I look forward to Paul's report. Monro isn't exactly current scholarship.
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Postby Skylax » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:23 pm

"Are they interchangable?"

At least, the meaning is the same. The heart of the matter is that the "second" forms are in principle OLDER than the "first" ones. "Second aorists" belong to a time were "I go" and "I went" were felt as different actions, expressed by different verbs. The "first" aorists appeared later, it is a more synthetic way of expression : e)poi/hsa "is still" the verb poie/w.
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Postby Paul » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:42 pm

annis wrote:Regarding the 1st.dual verb forms, Monro says there is one possible example in the Iliad (23.485), but it may be grammarians getting imaginative. West rejects it from his recent Iliad edition. I look forward to Paul's report. Monro isn't exactly current scholarship.


Hi Gang,

William, I am charmed at the prospect of 'my report'. Monro is the very source I was thinking of earlier in the day! The only thing I can add is that Smyth does mention 3 poetic forms of 1st person dual, including the form named by Monro.

For Lex's purpose, I'd say ignore this form. That's what I've done in my program.

Cordially,

Paul

P.S. - I love Monro. He may not be current, but he often has interesting insights and analyses that I've not seen in other grammars.
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Postby Lex » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:13 pm

annis wrote:
Lex wrote:Are they interchangable? Or are they used in different ways?


They are not usually interchangeable.


*sigh* This language is immense. I didn't quite know what I was getting myself into.

Anyhow, I suppose I should deal with them as separate forms, not as variations of the same form.

annis wrote:Do you plan to focus on a particular dialect of Greek? There are some verbs that have three separate aorist forms in Epic.


I plan on focusing on classical Attic, but I want the program to be generic enough that other people can use it.

annis wrote:For example, [face=spionic]kixa/nw[/face] "come upon, arrive at" has one first aorist [face=spionic]e)kixhsa/mhn[/face], one thematic second aorist [face=spionic]e)/kixon[/face], and one athematic (or root) aorist [face=spionic]e)ki/xhn[/face].


Hmmm.... OK, in another post, 2nd aorists, perfects and pluperfects were mentioned. Now you mention an athematic (root) aorist. Are there also athematic perfects and pluperfects? And in what voices and moods do any of these tenses apply? In short, how should I extend that huge list that I posted earlier?

annis wrote:Regarding the 1st.dual verb forms, Monro says there is one possible example in the Iliad (23.485), but it may be grammarians getting imaginative. West rejects it from his recent Iliad edition. I look forward to Paul's report. Monro isn't exactly current scholarship.


One possible example? Whew! No 1st person dual in my program.

All this help is greatly appreciated. (That goes out to everyone who has responded, not just William.)
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Postby Paul » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:57 pm

Hi Lex,

It is immense, but take heart.

Two of the aorists William points out ( [face=SPIonic]e)ki/xhn, e)ki/xon[/face] ) are 2nd aorist indicative active. It might be best for your program to treat one as a variant form of the other.

Cordially,

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Postby annis » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:03 pm

Paul wrote:William, I am charmed at the prospect of 'my report'. Monro is the very source I was thinking of earlier in the day! The only thing I can add is that Smyth does mention 3 poetic forms of 1st person dual, including the form named by Monro.


Now I wish I had a copy of Sihler. I should put that on my wishlist and he and Denniston can snuggle for a while.

For Lex's purpose, I'd say ignore this form.


I would agree.

P.S. - I love Monro. He may not be current, but he often has interesting insights and analyses that I've not seen in other grammars.


True, and my copy gets a lot of work, but some things make more sense in light of more recent dialect discoveries, especially the Mycenaean stuff.
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Postby annis » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:20 pm

Lex wrote:*sigh* This language is immense. I didn't quite know what I was getting myself into.


I think any sort of program that has to think about a highly inflecting language is going to be a bit vexing. I cannot imagine what the database structures Perseus uses look like.

Hmmm.... OK, in another post, 2nd aorists, perfects and pluperfects were mentioned. Now you mention an athematic (root) aorist. Are there also athematic perfects and pluperfects?


Perfects and pluperfects are basically only athematic, though this is most obvious in the middle.

And in what voices and moods do any of these tenses apply? In short, how should I extend that huge list that I posted earlier?


I'm not sure a list is the best approach. Though I must admit that my brain starts to itch when I try to think about it usefully. :)

I don't know how you're programming this and what your data structures are looking like, but I think I'd go for a verb analysis encoding that has slots for all the possible variations, one byte each:

|tense|voice|mood|person|number|...dialect note?|...?

And then file each form under a head-word (like in a dictionary), which would allow you to keep track of the fact that 1) the future of [face=spionic]fe/rw[/face] is [face=spionic]oi)/sw[/face], and 2) that the Attic aorist is [face=spionic]h)/negka[/face] and the Epic one is [face=spionic]h)/neika[/face], as well as 3) allow the possibility of including the periphrastic perfect forms (participle + [face=spionic]ei)mi/[/face]).

Just some thinking from a Unix geek.
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Postby mingshey » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:58 pm

I agree with Paul.
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Postby Lex » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:51 pm

Paul wrote:Hi Lex,

It is immense, but take heart.

Two of the aorists William points out ( [face=SPIonic]e)ki/xhn, e)ki/xon[/face] ) are 2nd aorist indicative active. It might be best for your program to treat one as a variant form of the other.


I was considering that. All I would have to do is make the fields long enough to accomodate several variations, separated by commas or something. But if they are used differently, then I am not sure that's the best approach, from the user's point of view.

You say that both of the above words are 2nd aorist. William said that one was 2nd (thematic) aorist, and the other was athematic (root) aorist. So the athematic (root) aorist is a form of 2nd aorist? :?
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Postby annis » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:16 pm

Lex wrote:So the athematic (root) aorist is a form of 2nd aorist? :?


Yes!

Well, yes as far as most grammars are concerned. The new Oxford Greek grammar locates the root aorists separately. I go into some of the details in the Aorist morphology tutorial on this very site. :)

Aorist Morphology.
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Postby Lex » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:17 pm

annis wrote:
And in what voices and moods do any of these tenses apply? In short, how should I extend that huge list that I posted earlier?


I'm not sure a list is the best approach. Though I must admit that my brain starts to itch when I try to think about it usefully. :)

I don't know how you're programming this and what your data structures are looking like, but I think I'd go for a verb analysis encoding that has slots for all the possible variations, one byte each:

|tense|voice|mood|person|number|...dialect note?|...?

And then file each form under a head-word (like in a dictionary), which would allow you to keep track of the fact that 1) the future of [face=spionic]fe/rw[/face] is [face=spionic]oi)/sw[/face], and 2) that the Attic aorist is [face=spionic]h)/negka[/face] and the Epic one is [face=spionic]h)/neika[/face], as well as 3) allow the possibility of including the periphrastic perfect forms (participle + [face=spionic]ei)mi/[/face]).

Just some thinking from a Unix geek.


Well, since I have a database already at my disposal, I decided to flatten the five byte-long codes you mention into the list I presented earlier (except that my list actually includes every combination of person and number as well), in a separate support table. Then I have a table with the headwords in it, as you suggested. So [face=SPIonic]lu/w[/face], for instance, would have an entry in the headword table. Another table, the conjugation table, would have all the possible conjugations of [face=SPIonic]lu/w[/face], each of which would point back to the headword table, and would also have a field with a number pointing to a row in the support table, indicating that this particular conjugation is perfect subjunctive active, 3rd person plural, or whatever. By flattening your codes into one support table, I only need to keep one extra field in the conjugation table. Also, the support table will already have the name of the conjugation completely spelled out; no further coding necessary.

I'm still more than a bit confused about all this 2nd this and root that business. I know that if I just put in the time and study more, I will eventually get it, but that means further delaying the finish of my program, which was intended to help me to study more! A classical Catch 22. Perhaps I will just have to leave my design as it is now (not taking into consideration 2nd this and that), and hope that incorporating them into my design later doesn't break anything too badly.
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Postby JauneFlammee » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:28 pm

Wow, it seems like a lot of classical greek enthusiasts are programmers (myself included).

There is a piece of software out there that fully conjugates classical greek verbs, you may want to look at it for some ideas.

Its called Kalos

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/8851/
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Postby Lex » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:39 pm

JauneFlammee wrote:There is a piece of software out there that fully conjugates classical greek verbs, you may want to look at it for some ideas.

Its called Kalos

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/8851/


Thanks. But the 5th disk won't download. Apparently it's no longer on the website.
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Postby JauneFlammee » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:20 pm

Apparently I linked to a legacy site by mistake. This is there new site and it should work

http://www.conjugator.net/
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Postby Lex » Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:45 pm

Wow, I sat down last night and went through the indexes of Goodwin's Grammar and White's First Book, and I think I have enough of a handle on 1st's and 2nd's now. Here's what my understanding is now. There is a:

1st aorist system, which includes 1st aorist in both active and middle.
2nd aorist system, which includes 2nd aorist in both active and middle.
1st perfect system, which includes 1st perfect and 1st pluperfect, in active.
2nd perfect system, which includes 2nd perfect and 2nd pluperfect, in active.
1st passive system, which includes 1st aorist and future, in passive.
2nd passive system, which includes 2nd aorist and future, in passive.

Where a verb has both 1sts and 2nds, they can have different meanings (transitive vs. intransitive), so those I want to handle separately in my program. But the 2nd aorist and the root aorist are used the same, so the root aorist doesn't have to be handled separately.

Does this sounds reasonable, or am I still confused?
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Postby annis » Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:53 pm

Lex wrote:Where a verb has both 1sts and 2nds, they can have different meanings (transitive vs. intransitive), so those I want to handle separately in my program. But the 2nd aorist and the root aorist are used the same, so the root aorist doesn't have to be handled separately.

Does this sounds reasonable, or am I still confused?


It depends on what you want to do with these names.

If they will be used just to help beginners learn how the verb is classified then this is probably fine.

This will not work if you plan to generate conjugations from these names. The root aorists are conjugated differently, which makes me grumpy about them being classified with 2nd aorists generically.
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Postby Lex » Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:33 pm

annis wrote:It depends on what you want to do with these names.

If they will be used just to help beginners learn how the verb is classified then this is probably fine.

This will not work if you plan to generate conjugations from these names. The root aorists are conjugated differently, which makes me grumpy about them being classified with 2nd aorists generically.


The program will be as dumb as I am regarding morphology, so it will not know how to generate conjugations. It will only store the conjugations according to the classifications. It's basically just an electronic flashcard system, with some knowledge of paradigms built in.

I could easily enough make the root aorists separate from the 2nd, but I'm not sure to which voices the root aorist can apply, and I don't want to bog down the program with conjugations that can't exist. That would confuse beginners more than help them.
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Postby annis » Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:14 pm

Lex wrote:I could easily enough make the root aorists separate from the 2nd, but I'm not sure to which voices the root aorist can apply, and I don't want to bog down the program with conjugations that can't exist.


First, 2nd and root aorists are all used the same. The classification only says how conjugation happens (and implies something about the verb stem), so all of these have the usual mood/voice/person/number combinations.
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Postby Lex » Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:49 am

annis wrote:The classification only says how conjugation happens (and implies something about the verb stem), so all of these have the usual mood/voice/person/number combinations.


I hoped that was the case, but I wasn't sure. And if I assumed, I was sure that some strange rule would crop up that root aorist never occurs in the middle voice, or some such. Thank you very much for your help.
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Postby Lex » Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:06 pm

annis wrote:I don't know how you're programming this and what your data structures are looking like, but I think I'd go for a verb analysis encoding that has slots for all the possible variations, one byte each:

|tense|voice|mood|person|number|...dialect note?|...?


I had to ditch the list idea, and go with something like this. The list indexing logic was getting too ugly for words, and God forbid the list ever changed!

About dialects... What different dialects are commonly encountered? I'm even weaker on dialects that the other aspects of Greek.
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