Alatius wrote:You can absolutely use the ablative form here: "gemmis" = "with gems". Nothing to complain about there.
However, you should take a second look at those verb forms. I'll post a correction in an hour or so, in case you want to figure it out yourself.
pmda wrote:'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula. ?
pmda wrote:Ornantur is Present tense 3rd person plural passive, right.....is 'sunt' unnecessary...?
modus.irrealis wrote:"ornantur", though, means "are decorated" in the sense "get decorated" or "are being/getting decorated". If you're just describing that they're decorated, you need "ornata sunt".
furrykef wrote:pmda wrote:'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula. ?
Close. Remember: "The color of his blood..."pmda wrote:Ornantur is Present tense 3rd person plural passive, right.....is 'sunt' unnecessary...?
Yep, 'sunt' is unnecessary. Aside from that it's fine.
pmda wrote:Hi - But Orberg (Cap VIII Line 32) has 'Collum Lydiae margaritis pulchris ornatur.'
pmda wrote:Actually furrykef...what I thought I was doing here - and maybe you can show me where I've gone wrong - was using infinitive + accusative to report indirect speech and that Sanguinem, colorem and pulchrum would all be accusative as reported speech of Dracula.
pmda wrote:But if you can say Oculus eius aeger est then could you not say oculus eius color ruber est...
furrykef wrote:Why does "pulcher" become "pulchrum" too? Because whenever the subject of "esse" is accusative, its predicate must also be accusative. Likewise, when the subject is nominative, the predicate must be nominative (compare "It is I" in English; "It is me" is colloquial English but bad Latin).
adrianus wrote:When I look for evidence for "aliquid adjectivum + colorem esse" I find that's more medieval and rare (e.g., "facies color albus") compared to "aliquid colorem habere" or "alicui colorem esse". Best to follow furrykef's advice and ignore it.
rkday wrote:I think something else that hasn't been mentioned is that the sentence you originally gave - 'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula - is quoted direct speech, not indirect speech, since it has quotation marks. Compare these to see the difference:
"That his blood is a beautiful colour" said Dracula.
Dracula said that his blood is a beautiful colour.
pmda wrote:My understanding of accusativus + infinitivus and its use in indirect speech is that ALL of the nouns have to be accusative - but not the genitive pronoun in this case....
pmda wrote:modus.irrealis wrote:"ornantur", though, means "are decorated" in the sense "get decorated" or "are being/getting decorated". If you're just describing that they're decorated, you need "ornata sunt".
Hi - But Orberg (Cap VIII Line 32) has 'Collum Lydiae margaritis pulchris ornatur.'
http://upmf-grenoble.fr/Haiti/Cours/Ak/Corpus/d-34.htm wrote:10. Ornamenta muliebria sunt, quibus mulier ornatur, veluti inaures armillae viriolae anuli praeter signatorios et omnia, quae ad aliam rem nullam parantur, nisi corporis ornandi causa: quo ex numero etiam haec sunt: aurum gemmae lapilli, quia aliam nullam in se utilitatem habent. Mundus mulieris est, quo mulier mundior fit: continentur eo specula matulae unguenta vasa unguentaria et si qua similia dici possunt, veluti lavatio riscus. Ornamentorum haec: vittae mitrae semimitrae calautica acus cum margarita, quam mulieres habere solent, reticula crocyfantia. Sicut et mulier potest esse munda, non tamen ornata, ut solet contingere in his, quae se emundaverint lotae in balneo neque se ornaverint: et contra est aliqua ex somno statim ornata, non tamen conmundata.
modus.irrealis wrote:Thanks, adrianus. But wouldn't that have the habitual sense? It's different from the Orberg example where it describes a current state.
adrianus wrote:How do you know Lydia doesn't habitually wear pearls round her neck?
Quomodò scis Lydiam non solere in collo margaritiis uti?
modus.irrealis wrote:adrianus wrote:How do you know Lydia doesn't habitually wear pearls round her neck?
Quomodò scis Lydiam non solere in collo margaritiis uti?
I don't, not having the book, but pmda's reply to my first post (and pmda can correct if I'm wrong) suggests that Orberg's sentence does not have a habitual sense. Otherwise, was I correct in saying it should be "Pocula gemmis ornata sunt"?
pmda wrote:Not sure...I think Orberg is simply saying that her neck is decorated with a string of pearls - at the moment. I'm not able to follow the previous number of posts....so I'm not sure what's at issue...
modus.irrealis wrote:I couldn't find any examples of this usage. Does anyone know any with this or a similar verb?
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dpingo wrote:“quas (comas) Dione Pingitur sustinuisse manu,” is represented in painting, Ov. Am. 1, 14, 34;
...“stellis pingitur aether,” Sen. Med. 310.
http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost12/CarmenDeProdicione/car_prod.html wrote:Purpurea veste vestitur regia conjunx,
Et vestem decorat et sua vestis eam
pmda wrote:Not sure...I think Orberg is simply saying that her neck is decorated with a string of pearls - at the moment. I'm not able to follow the previous number of posts....so I'm not sure what's at issue...
adrianus wrote:The verbs "pingo" and "fingo" and "vestio":http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dpingo wrote:“quas (comas) Dione Pingitur sustinuisse manu,” is represented in painting, Ov. Am. 1, 14, 34;
...“stellis pingitur aether,” Sen. Med. 310.
If I say something is painted or depicted, is that habitual, modus.irrealis?
Si ità dicam, "aliquod pingitur vel fingitur" enim, dicamne sensu ad rem cotidianam pertinenti?
Addendum
Also for "vestio" // Etiam cum "vestio" verbo" hoc:http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost12/CarmenDeProdicione/car_prod.html wrote:Purpurea veste vestitur regia conjunx,
Et vestem decorat et sua vestis eam
adrianus wrote:Indirect speech // Oratio obliqua
"Dixit Dracula sanguinem eius/ei colorem pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that his blood was a beautiful colour"
"Dixit Dracula colorem sanguinis eius/ei pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that the colour of his blood was beautiful"
adrianus wrote:“vestitur tota libellis porticus,” Juv. 12, 100
Margaritiae collum Lydiae ornant (vocis activae // active) --> Margaritiis collum Lydiae ornatur (passivae vocae // passive)
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