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Can anyone take a look at this?

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Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:50 am

Following an earlier suggestion I have started putting words into whole sentences to fix them in my memory. The main challenge is not remembering the meaning but the gender of nouns. I have put 'poculum' into the following sentence:

Pocula ornantur gemmis sunt.

The cups are decorated with gems... Is it a correct use of the ablative?

Does it look OK...?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby Alatius » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:12 am

You can absolutely use the ablative form here: "gemmis" = "with gems". Nothing to complain about there.

However, you should take a second look at those verb forms. I'll post a correction in an hour or so, in case you want to figure it out yourself. :wink:
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:40 am

EDIT: Oops. I thought it'd been over an hour since Alatius's post, but it hadn't. I'll post the answer when the hour is up if Alatius doesn't.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:42 am

How about 'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula. ?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:45 am

Alatius wrote:You can absolutely use the ablative form here: "gemmis" = "with gems". Nothing to complain about there.

However, you should take a second look at those verb forms. I'll post a correction in an hour or so, in case you want to figure it out yourself. :wink:


Ornantur is Present tense 3rd person plural passive, right.....is 'sunt' unnecessary...?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:49 am

pmda wrote:'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula. ?

Close. Remember: "The color of his blood..."

pmda wrote:Ornantur is Present tense 3rd person plural passive, right.....is 'sunt' unnecessary...?

Yep, 'sunt' is unnecessary. Aside from that it's fine. :)
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:53 pm

"ornantur", though, means "are decorated" in the sense "get decorated" or "are being/getting decorated". If you're just describing that they're decorated, you need "ornata sunt".
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:01 am

modus.irrealis wrote:"ornantur", though, means "are decorated" in the sense "get decorated" or "are being/getting decorated". If you're just describing that they're decorated, you need "ornata sunt".


Hi - But Orberg (Cap VIII Line 32) has 'Collum Lydiae margaritis pulchris ornatur.'
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:13 am

furrykef wrote:
pmda wrote:'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula. ?

Close. Remember: "The color of his blood..."

pmda wrote:Ornantur is Present tense 3rd person plural passive, right.....is 'sunt' unnecessary...?

Yep, 'sunt' is unnecessary. Aside from that it's fine. :)


Actually furrykef...what I thought I was doing here - and maybe you can show me where I've gone wrong - was using infinitive + accusative to report indirect speech and that Sanguinem, colorem and pulchrum would all be accusative as reported speech of Dracula. I've just come across this in Ch 11 of Orberg. You're saying it should be 'sanguinis eius colorem pulchrum esse'...dixit Dracula...right? But can't I say, for example, oculus eius aeger est...as an identity relationship? Now this may simply be down to what's idiomatic. But if you can say Oculus eius aeger est then could you not say oculus eius color ruber est...I can see why this may not be idiomatic and that you have to indicate 'colour of'.....Mind you I may be rambling here. I'll go back and look at Ch. 11 in more detail.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby Alatius » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:59 am

pmda wrote:Hi - But Orberg (Cap VIII Line 32) has 'Collum Lydiae margaritis pulchris ornatur.'


Ah, okay, part of the problem here, I think, is that "ornare" can be used in two ways: 1) the subject can be a person that is decorating something with something, but 2) the subject can also be the decoration itself.

In the active voice, present tense:

1) 'Faber poculum gemmis ornat.' = 'The craftsman adorns the cup with gems.'
2) 'Gemmae poculum ornant.' = 'Gems adorn the cup.'

These sentences end up looking very similar when turned into the the passive voice (still present tense):

1) 'Poculum gemmis ornatur (a fabro)' = 'The cup is (being) adorned with gems (by the craftsman)'
2) 'Poculum gemmis ornatur.' = 'The cup is adorned by gems.'
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:13 am

thanks for this reply. I think that much translation in Latin depends upon context and context is only supplied by what's gone before....which if it hasn't been supplied leaves room for ambiguity.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:19 am

pmda wrote:Actually furrykef...what I thought I was doing here - and maybe you can show me where I've gone wrong - was using infinitive + accusative to report indirect speech and that Sanguinem, colorem and pulchrum would all be accusative as reported speech of Dracula.


The reason you use the accusative is because the nouns become the direct object of "dīxit". What you're literally saying here is "Dracula said the color of his blood to be pretty" -- unidiomatic English, but it should illustrate the principle. Here, "color" is clearly a direct object, so it becomes "colōrem". Why does "pulcher" become "pulchrum" too? Because whenever the subject of "esse" is accusative, its predicate must also be accusative. Likewise, when the subject is nominative, the predicate must be nominative (compare "It is I" in English; "It is me" is colloquial English but bad Latin). But "sanguis" needn't become accusative because it is neither the direct object of dīxit nor the predicate of "esse"; instead, it modifies "colōrem", so it becomes "sanguinis".


pmda wrote:But if you can say Oculus eius aeger est then could you not say oculus eius color ruber est...

I don't know whether Latin would use the nominative ("oculus eius color ruber est") or the genitive ("oculus eius coloris rubri est"). This comes up because I know that in Spanish, to ask the color of something, you have to ask "¿De qué color es la pelota?" ("Of what color is the ball?"). But maybe that doesn't apply to Latin and for our purposes I'll assume the nominative is fine.

In this sentence, "color" and "ruber" are in apposition. It's hard to explain what apposition is, but it's basically when you have two nouns or noun phrases next to each other and one describes the other. Examples of apposition in English:
* the color red (analogous to "color ruber")
* the movie Star Trek IV
* my friend Robert
* Las Vegas, the city that never sleeps (here a comma separates the two phrases, but it's still apposition)

When you have "sanguinem eius colorem", the apposition seems awkward. What you have is, basically, "Dracula said that his blood color is pretty." It makes enough sense but I don't think the phrase "blood color" works that way in Latin. We do know, however, that "the color of his blood" should translate well into "color sanguinis", so I'd strongly recommend that phrase.

Does all this make sense?

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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:47 am

I think it makes sense...I'll be looking closer at this indirect speech and over the next few days. Many thanks for your help.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:16 am

furrykef wrote:Why does "pulcher" become "pulchrum" too? Because whenever the subject of "esse" is accusative, its predicate must also be accusative. Likewise, when the subject is nominative, the predicate must be nominative (compare "It is I" in English; "It is me" is colloquial English but bad Latin).


By the way, I must add that this rule shouldn't be taken too literally. It's perfectly possible to say, for example, "Liber est Mārcī", using a nominative and a genitive, to say "The book is Marcus's." The important thing is that you can't use the nominative for the subject and the accusative for the predicate, or vice versa, but you can have nominative and genitive or nominative and dative if they make sense.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:45 pm

Direct speech // Oratio recta

"Sanguis eius/ei color pulcher est" = "His blood is a beautiful colour"
"Color sanguinis eius/ei pulcher est" = "The colour of his blood is beautiful"

Indirect speech // Oratio obliqua

"Dixit Dracula sanguinem eius/ei colorem pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that his blood was a beautiful colour"
"Dixit Dracula colorem sanguinis eius/ei pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that the colour of his blood was beautiful"
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:03 pm

"Dixit Dracula sanguinem eius/ei colorem pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that his blood was a beautiful colour"

OK so my sentence: 'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula. is the same as the above...so it's OK you reckon...?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:15 pm

In my opinion, yes, pmda.
Meo judicio, ità est, pmda.

also "...pulchrum colore esse", I think // Et "...pulchrum colore esse", ut suspicor

Post scriptum et corrigendum

When I look for evidence for "aliquid adjectivum + colorem esse" I find that's more medieval and rare (e.g., "facies color albus") compared to "aliquid colorem habere" or "alicui colorem esse". Best to follow furrykef's advice and ignore it.

Indicia usûs quaerens, non invenio nisi aevo medio et raró. Proindè optimum est consilium de furrykef sequi et illam formulam ignorare.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:11 pm

Ah, nuts. It hadn't even occurred to me to think of it as "his blood is a beautiful color"; I guess I got hung up on "the color of his blood is beautiful". I guess the word order threw me off... I'm not entirely used to 'reordering' sentences in my head, especially with 'esse'. I prefer using subject-verb-object (SVO) ordering with forms of "esse" and I get the impression I may not be the only one, though Lingua Latina does use SOV ordering pretty consistently. Wheelock seems to use the SVO ordering more often for "esse".

adrianus wrote:When I look for evidence for "aliquid adjectivum + colorem esse" I find that's more medieval and rare (e.g., "facies color albus") compared to "aliquid colorem habere" or "alicui colorem esse". Best to follow furrykef's advice and ignore it.


Hmm. What about "Dīxit Dracula sanguinem eius/eī colōris pulchrum esse" -- Dracula said that his blood was of a beautiful color (going back to the whole "de qué color es la pelota" thing)?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby rkday » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:04 am

I think something else that hasn't been mentioned is that the sentence you originally gave - 'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula - is quoted direct speech, not indirect speech, since it has quotation marks. Compare these to see the difference:

"That his blood is a beautiful colour" said Dracula.

Dracula said that his blood is a beautiful colour.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:45 am

rkday wrote:I think something else that hasn't been mentioned is that the sentence you originally gave - 'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse' dixit Dracula - is quoted direct speech, not indirect speech, since it has quotation marks. Compare these to see the difference:

"That his blood is a beautiful colour" said Dracula.

Dracula said that his blood is a beautiful colour.


Orberg deals with this as follows:

Medicus: 'Lingua eius rubra est.' [with quotation marks].. but then to report indirect speech - using accusativus + infinitivus he has Amelia telling Syra what the doctor said as follows: Aemilia "Dicit 'linguam eius rubram esse'." I'm trying to do the latter. Dixit Dracula 'Sanguinem eius colorem pulchrum esse'. My understanding of accusativus + infinitivus and its use in indirect speech is that ALL of the nouns have to be accusative - but not the genitive pronoun in this case....though this latter comment maybe inviting a massive and devastating correction from the many wider and more learned people here..
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:53 am

rkday -- the Lingua Latina series of books uses single quotation marks around indirect speech and double quotation marks around direct speech; pmda was simply following that convention. No, I don't really know why Lingua Latina does it. I thought maybe it was just a crutch to help a beginning student, but I recently got the Lingua Latina edition of Caesar's De Bello Gallico and it still does it. (That doesn't rule out the possibility that it is a crutch, I just figure it's less likely when you start getting into real Latin authors...)

I wonder if Ørberg's native language, Danish, has this feature. It's pretty common for Latin writers to partially import the punctuation style of their native languages. If it's not in Danish, where might it have come from...?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby furrykef » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:02 am

pmda wrote:My understanding of accusativus + infinitivus and its use in indirect speech is that ALL of the nouns have to be accusative - but not the genitive pronoun in this case....

I can't think of any situation where you'll need to make more than two nouns accusative in indirect speech -- the one that's the direct object of dīxit, and the one that's linked to it with "esse". Of course, this is counting compound nouns like "Iulium Caesarem" as one noun.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:16 pm

pmda wrote:
modus.irrealis wrote:"ornantur", though, means "are decorated" in the sense "get decorated" or "are being/getting decorated". If you're just describing that they're decorated, you need "ornata sunt".


Hi - But Orberg (Cap VIII Line 32) has 'Collum Lydiae margaritis pulchris ornatur.'

I have to admit that that line sounds odd to me and my understanding was along the lines of the note in this book. But I would trust Orberg over me and Alatius explained the construction, although I couldn't find any examples of this usage. Does anyone know any with this or a similar verb?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:26 pm

http://upmf-grenoble.fr/Haiti/Cours/Ak/Corpus/d-34.htm wrote:10. Ornamenta muliebria sunt, quibus mulier ornatur, veluti inaures armillae viriolae anuli praeter signatorios et omnia, quae ad aliam rem nullam parantur, nisi corporis ornandi causa: quo ex numero etiam haec sunt: aurum gemmae lapilli, quia aliam nullam in se utilitatem habent. Mundus mulieris est, quo mulier mundior fit: continentur eo specula matulae unguenta vasa unguentaria et si qua similia dici possunt, veluti lavatio riscus. Ornamentorum haec: vittae mitrae semimitrae calautica acus cum margarita, quam mulieres habere solent, reticula crocyfantia. Sicut et mulier potest esse munda, non tamen ornata, ut solet contingere in his, quae se emundaverint lotae in balneo neque se ornaverint: et contra est aliqua ex somno statim ornata, non tamen conmundata.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:24 pm

Thanks, adrianus. But wouldn't that have the habitual sense? It's different from the Orberg example where it describes a current state.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby Alatius » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:31 pm

Ovidius, Metamorphoses 5.52-53:

"...; ōrnābant aurāta monīlia collum
et madidōs murrā curvum crīnāle capillōs;"
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:50 pm

Of course I didn't have any problem with the active use you mentioned. It was just the transformation to the passive that was new to me and that I had not come across before.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:15 am

modus.irrealis wrote:Thanks, adrianus. But wouldn't that have the habitual sense? It's different from the Orberg example where it describes a current state.

How do you know Lydia doesn't habitually wear pearls round her neck?
Quomodò scis Lydiam non solere in collo margaritiis uti?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:41 am

adrianus wrote:How do you know Lydia doesn't habitually wear pearls round her neck?
Quomodò scis Lydiam non solere in collo margaritiis uti?

I don't, not having the book, but pmda's reply to my first post (and pmda can correct if I'm wrong) suggests that Orberg's sentence does not have a habitual sense. Otherwise, was I correct in saying it should be "Pocula gemmis ornata sunt"?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:15 pm

I believe "Pocula gemmis ornata sunt" and "Pocula gemmis ornantur" are both OK. If I can live with the ambiguity of "the cups are adorned with jewels" and "the cups have been adorned with jewels" I can live with the ambiguity of "The cups are adorned with jewels" and "The cups are being adorned with jewels". I'm no authority, though.

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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:56 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:
adrianus wrote:How do you know Lydia doesn't habitually wear pearls round her neck?
Quomodò scis Lydiam non solere in collo margaritiis uti?

I don't, not having the book, but pmda's reply to my first post (and pmda can correct if I'm wrong) suggests that Orberg's sentence does not have a habitual sense. Otherwise, was I correct in saying it should be "Pocula gemmis ornata sunt"?


Not sure...I think Orberg is simply saying that her neck is decorated with a string of pearls - at the moment. I'm not able to follow the previous number of posts....so I'm not sure what's at issue...
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:41 pm

pmda wrote:Not sure...I think Orberg is simply saying that her neck is decorated with a string of pearls - at the moment. I'm not able to follow the previous number of posts....so I'm not sure what's at issue...

Of course he is, pmda. That was just my joke about not knowing how often Lydia wore pearls. Modus.irrealis thought Orberg should have written otherwise. I don't believe so, myself. I think "ornata est" and "ornatur" are both OK for "she is adorned".

Quod sic Orberg dicere vult non dubito. Tantummodò jocavi de crebritate margaritarum gerendarum ad Lydiam. Ego Orberg non aliter scribisse reor, quià aptum "ornatur" ut verbum mihi videtur, non minùs quàm "ornata est".

modus.irrealis wrote:I couldn't find any examples of this usage. Does anyone know any with this or a similar verb?

The verbs "pingo" and "fingo" and "vestio":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dpingo wrote:“quas (comas) Dione Pingitur sustinuisse manu,” is represented in painting, Ov. Am. 1, 14, 34;
...“stellis pingitur aether,” Sen. Med. 310.

If I say something is painted or depicted, is that habitual, modus.irrealis?
Si ità dicam, "aliquod pingitur vel fingitur" enim, dicamne sensu ad rem cotidianam pertinenti?

Addendum
Also for "vestio" // Etiam cum "vestio" verbo" hoc:
http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost12/CarmenDeProdicione/car_prod.html wrote:Purpurea veste vestitur regia conjunx,
Et vestem decorat et sua vestis eam
Last edited by adrianus on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby pmda » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:04 pm

Actually here's a question from Orbers's Exercitia Latina for Ch XI.

Qui color est linguae? Is this how one normally indicates colour in Latin. How to I say the colour of teeth is white?

Color dentum (alborum? albus? albi?) (sunt? / est? ) (??)
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:10 pm

Albus est color dentum*. Color dentum* albus est.

corrigendum

"dentium" ut dicit Alatius
Last edited by adrianus on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby Alatius » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:41 pm

"Dentium", nonne?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:56 pm

Doh! Me ineptum!
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:58 pm

pmda wrote:Not sure...I think Orberg is simply saying that her neck is decorated with a string of pearls - at the moment. I'm not able to follow the previous number of posts....so I'm not sure what's at issue...

The passive in English has distinct meanings that are distinguished in a lot of languages -- a quick search found this discussing it in terms of Latin. (Since that's old the same distinction is made in German and you can see what I mean here).

--

adrianus wrote:The verbs "pingo" and "fingo" and "vestio":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dpingo wrote:“quas (comas) Dione Pingitur sustinuisse manu,” is represented in painting, Ov. Am. 1, 14, 34;
...“stellis pingitur aether,” Sen. Med. 310.

If I say something is painted or depicted, is that habitual, modus.irrealis?
Si ità dicam, "aliquod pingitur vel fingitur" enim, dicamne sensu ad rem cotidianam pertinenti?

How do you understand the first example? I don't see how it would indicate a current state. It seems to me that either "quondam" means "sometimes" and "pingitur" represents a repeated action or it means "at a certain time" and "pingitur" is a historic present and represents the act. I should say that after finding that German link above, that's a much better way to describe what I was getting at, "ornatur" = dynamic, focus on process, "ornatus est" = stative, focus on state (in its one sense, since it can also refer to the act in the past like you mentioned). The second one is tricky. Before this discussion I would have assumed that "pingitur" is indicating that this painting is a continuous process in some sense (the ether gets painted with stars), but now I'm not sure, since a stative interpretation fits perfectly.

Addendum
Also for "vestio" // Etiam cum "vestio" verbo" hoc:
http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost12/CarmenDeProdicione/car_prod.html wrote:Purpurea veste vestitur regia conjunx,
Et vestem decorat et sua vestis eam

At first glance these seem to be historic presents and don't indicate states. It seems to me "vestitur" here could be translated "gets dressed".
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:07 pm

“vestitur tota libellis porticus,” Juv. 12, 100

Margaritiae collum Lydiae ornant (vocis activae // active) --> Margaritiis collum Lydiae ornatur (passivae vocae // passive)
Stellae aetherem pingunt (vocis activae // active) --> Stellis aether pingitur (passivae vocae // passive)
Libelli totam porticum vestiunt (vocis activae // active) --> Libellis tota porticus vestitur (passivae vocae // passive)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby Smythe » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:01 pm

adrianus wrote:Indirect speech // Oratio obliqua

"Dixit Dracula sanguinem eius/ei colorem pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that his blood was a beautiful colour"
"Dixit Dracula colorem sanguinis eius/ei pulchrum esse" = "Dracula said that the colour of his blood was beautiful"


I have been translating indirect speech as something like "Dracula said that his blood is a beautiful color". This may just be a matter of taste or it may be my lack of understanding, but why would you use the perfect/imperfect of 'esse' in indirect speech?
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Re: Can anyone take a look at this?

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:03 pm

adrianus wrote:“vestitur tota libellis porticus,” Juv. 12, 100

This seems to me to be a general statement in context too :D.

Margaritiae collum Lydiae ornant (vocis activae // active) --> Margaritiis collum Lydiae ornatur (passivae vocae // passive)

Just in case I'm giving the wrong impression, I'm fine with this transformation (which is the one Alatius gave before) with meaning of a current state. So I don't think the Orberg sentence is wrong but I would guess that using the passive participle would be more common. I know I'm being picky with the examples (which I appreciate), but I would like an example that compels you to read it a certain way, rather than merely admitting such a reading.
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