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Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

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Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby NateD26 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:21 pm

I hope this section of the forums will become livelier soon. :(

ἦλθον ἐπί τινα τῶν δοκούντων σοφῶν εἶναι, ὡς ἐνταῦθα εἴπερ που ἐλέγξων τὸ μαντεῖον
καὶ ἀποφανῶν τῷ χρησμῷ ὅτι “οὑτοσὶ ἐμοῦ σοφώτερός ἐστι, σὺ δ᾽ ἐμὲ ἔφησθα.”

I understand the sentence, but I do not get the addition of the underlined words.
Plato uses ὡς + fut.part. which is akin to ἵνα + subj., a purpose clause.
But what does εἴπερ που mean here? Was there some omission of the condition?


So that, if indeed there is somewhere [a wiser man than I], I may refute the oracular
response and may point out to the oracle that "this man here is wiser than I am, but
you said* I was [the wisest]."


* Should I use here alleged instead, seeing that in 21b5 Plato used φάσκων instead of εἰπών?
Nate.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby spiphany » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:56 pm

εἴπερ που is parenthetical here, I think. It's not introducing a full conditional clause, but rather qualifies ἐνταῦθα and simply means "if indeed anywhere"
"so that there, if anywhere, I might refute..."

It's always the little words in prose that give me difficulties, because I'm used to being able to mostly ignore them in an author like Homer, but this is a good example of why paying attention to them is important.

I'm not sure how you were translating ἐνταῦθα, but just in case, since it's easy to slip up and unconsciously carry over idioms from one language into another: "there is" in English would not be generally correspond to a place adverb in Greek -- when you think about it, there's nothing about the expression that describes location, it's more of a place-holder required by the rules of syntax (a paraphrase of "x exists").
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby NateD26 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:29 pm

Thanks , spiphany.
spiphany wrote:I'm not sure how you were translating ἐνταῦθα, but just in case, since it's easy to slip up and unconsciously carry over idioms from one language into another: "there is" in English would not be generally correspond to a place adverb in Greek -- when you think about it, there's nothing about the expression that describes location, it's more of a place-holder required by the rules of syntax (a paraphrase of "x exists").

Sorry, I completely forgot the ἐνταῦθα. "there is" was just the implied ἐστί from the response of the oracle [i remember the debate in class last year
whether that ἐστί signified existence, "if there is someone wiser" or simply 'to be', "if someone is wiser"; we drew a tie].
Now with the ἐνταῦθα, [although that could also be a temporal adv. 'so that then, i may...' but it wouldn't fit with πού]
I understand why εἴπερ που is parenthetical here. Thank you.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:42 pm

NateD26 wrote:* Should I use here alleged instead, seeing that in 21b5 Plato used φάσκων instead of εἰπών?

I think "said" is better (it can imply "alleged" if the context is right anyway). The aorist εἰπών couldn't be used in 21b as far as I can see, so you just have φάσκων (as the present participle of φημί).
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Re: Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby NateD26 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:23 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:I think "said" is better (it can imply "alleged" if the context is right anyway). The aorist εἰπών couldn't be used in 21b as far as I can see, so you just have φάσκων (as the present participle of φημί).

Thank you. I misread what I remembered from the entry of φημί in LSJ. Here it is:
    In this sense Att. writers, besides pres., mostly use fut. φήσω and aor. ἔφησα, but in impf., inf., and part. pres., to avoid ambiguity, they prefer ἔφασκον, φάσκειν, φάσκων (v. φάσκω): φάναι is distd. fr. φάσκειν, e.g. ἔφη σπουδάζειν he said he was in haste, ἔφασκε σπουδάζειν he alleged he was in haste; but ἔφησθα is found in this sense, X.An.1.6.7.
When Plato first mentioned the oracle's response, he'd used φάσκων in place of ὅτε + impf. -- does it mean "alleging that I am the wisest"?
I think I misinterpret what I'm reading here.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:54 pm

I didn't interpret the participle as equivalent to an imperfect but to a present mostly because of λέγει being present, τί λέγει φάσκων... = what does it mean, when it says.../by saying...

I don't think there's any overtones of alleging. I think he just means that this is what the oracle said.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 21b9-c2

Postby NateD26 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:11 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:I didn't interpret the participle as equivalent to an imperfect but to a present mostly because of λέγει being present, τί λέγει φάσκων... = what does it mean, when it says.../by saying...

I forgot that this question is part of a direct quote of Socrates' pondering. Thank you.
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