Hi everyone. I am reading the Aeneid in the OCT this summer, and thought I could make a thread for general discussion and grammatical queries. (Okay, mostly because there are bits of grammar I can't figure out, but it would be lovely to have discussions going on.) Cheers, everyone.
So first off, a couple questions from book 7. Allecto is visiting Turnus in a dream to rouse him to battle, and Turnus dismisses her at first:
(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 437-8)
... classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris
Is nuntius subject of effugit? That would make classis genitive, but what to do with invectas Thybridis undam? Unless nuntius can take a substantive clause (classis invectas Thybridis undam) in apposition, which makes classis accusative to agree with invectas, but then invectas would need an active meaning to take undam as direct object.
(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 540-1)
atque ea per campos aequo dum Marte geruntur,
promissi dea facta potens ...
"dea potens" is subject, but is promissi the noun or a verbal form? Is facta some kind of accusative of respect?
Summertime Aeneid
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1093
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
- Location: Toronto
Re: Summertime Aeneid
The latter. I read it as "nuntius" being the subject and "classis invectas Thybridis undam" in apposition, except that "undam" is not a direct object. If you look at the entry for inveho you can see that it can take a bare accusative of place.dsch wrote:(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 437-8)
... classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris
Is nuntius subject of effugit? That would make classis genitive, but what to do with invectas Thybridis undam? Unless nuntius can take a substantive clause (classis invectas Thybridis undam) in apposition, which makes classis accusative to agree with invectas, but then invectas would need an active meaning to take undam as direct object.
I had no idea about this one but looking it up in commentaries it seems that "facta" is modifying "dea", and literally it's "the goddess, having become master of her promise" = "having fulfilled her promise".(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 540-1)
atque ea per campos aequo dum Marte geruntur,
promissi dea facta potens ...
"dea potens" is subject, but is promissi the noun or a verbal form? Is facta some kind of accusative of respect?
- ptolemyauletes
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:26 am
Re: Summertime Aeneid
promissi dea facta potens
'The Goddess, having become powerful of the promised thing' meaning 'the goddess, having fulfilled her promise.'
facta is a participle modifying dea.
promissi is also a participle. It is describing a thing that she has promised. The neuter thing is in the genitive case, hence the 'i' ending.
This is a difficult sentence. Poetry frequently bends the rules of grammar, often beyond breaking point. It takes a great deal of imagination sometimes to get the sense.
classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris
This is accusative infinitive with an implied verb of speaking. classis is accusative plural, modified by invectas and has undam as a noun of motion with the preposition omitted, a common feature of poetry. 'The message (saying) that the fleet of Thybris has been dragged up onto the shore, has not, as you think, escaped my ears.'
'The Goddess, having become powerful of the promised thing' meaning 'the goddess, having fulfilled her promise.'
facta is a participle modifying dea.
promissi is also a participle. It is describing a thing that she has promised. The neuter thing is in the genitive case, hence the 'i' ending.
This is a difficult sentence. Poetry frequently bends the rules of grammar, often beyond breaking point. It takes a great deal of imagination sometimes to get the sense.
classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris
This is accusative infinitive with an implied verb of speaking. classis is accusative plural, modified by invectas and has undam as a noun of motion with the preposition omitted, a common feature of poetry. 'The message (saying) that the fleet of Thybris has been dragged up onto the shore, has not, as you think, escaped my ears.'
The only thing we can guarantee when communicating via the internet is that we will be almost completely misunderstood, and likely cause great offence in doing so. Throw in an attempt at humour and you insure a lifelong enemy will be made.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3270
- Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm
Re: Summertime Aeneid
Here are some tiny differences of interpretation, Ptolemyauletes,—maybe right, maybe wrong?
En discrimina interpretationis minuscula, ptolemyauletes,—forsàn falsa, forsàn recta?
** promissi potens in ipso anglicè "having fulfilled [her] promise" vult dicere, ubi "potens" genetivo casui "promissum -i" nominis neutrius generis servat—quod nomen certè in participio primitùs oritur.
En discrimina interpretationis minuscula, ptolemyauletes,—forsàn falsa, forsàn recta?
Hic iuvenis vatem inridens sic orsa vicissim
ore refert: `Classis [=classes] invectas [esse] Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris [=aures].
Here the youth, ridiculing by his expression the one prophesying, recounted these words in his turn: "You don't believe that the news that the fleet has entered the Tiber's water [wave] has escaped my ears!"
* bringing about [her having fulfilled]Atque ea per campos aequo dum Marte geruntur,
promissi dea facta potens, ubi sanguine bellum
imbuit et primae commisit funera pugnae,
deserit Hesperiam et caeli convexa per auras
Iunonem victrix adfatur voce superba:
En perfecta tibi bello discordia tristi.
And while these things were happening throughout the fields/plains with equal Martial spirit, the goddess being done [*], having fulfilled her promise [**] where she has soaked the war with blood and brought about the deaths of the first battle, leaves Hesperia and, borne through the breezes of heaven, triumphant, speaks to Juno in a haughty voice: "Behold the discord that is accomplished for you by sorrowful war!"
** promissi potens in ipso anglicè "having fulfilled [her] promise" vult dicere, ubi "potens" genetivo casui "promissum -i" nominis neutrius generis servat—quod nomen certè in participio primitùs oritur.
Last edited by adrianus on Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:02 pm
Re: Summertime Aeneid
Thank you for your replies, everyone!
adrianus: Wouldn't "you believe that" require "rere ut" rather than "ut rere", which seems to be commonly parenthetical?
adrianus: Wouldn't "you believe that" require "rere ut" rather than "ut rere", which seems to be commonly parenthetical?
- ptolemyauletes
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:26 am
Re: Summertime Aeneid
Yes, unda is of course water, rather than shore... a few translations I came across indicated a landing... I will check Lewis and Short for unda...
As you well know, my translations were intentionally literal in an effort to convey the grammatical structure.
I am sure dsch appreciates your help, as we all do, Adrianus!
As you well know, my translations were intentionally literal in an effort to convey the grammatical structure.
I am sure dsch appreciates your help, as we all do, Adrianus!
The only thing we can guarantee when communicating via the internet is that we will be almost completely misunderstood, and likely cause great offence in doing so. Throw in an attempt at humour and you insure a lifelong enemy will be made.