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Summertime Aeneid

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Summertime Aeneid

Postby dsch » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:12 pm

Hi everyone. I am reading the Aeneid in the OCT this summer, and thought I could make a thread for general discussion and grammatical queries. (Okay, mostly because there are bits of grammar I can't figure out, but it would be lovely to have discussions going on.) Cheers, everyone.

So first off, a couple questions from book 7. Allecto is visiting Turnus in a dream to rouse him to battle, and Turnus dismisses her at first:

(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 437-8)
... classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris

Is nuntius subject of effugit? That would make classis genitive, but what to do with invectas Thybridis undam? Unless nuntius can take a substantive clause (classis invectas Thybridis undam) in apposition, which makes classis accusative to agree with invectas, but then invectas would need an active meaning to take undam as direct object.


(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 540-1)
atque ea per campos aequo dum Marte geruntur,
promissi dea facta potens ...

"dea potens" is subject, but is promissi the noun or a verbal form? Is facta some kind of accusative of respect?
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Re: Summertime Aeneid

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:48 pm

dsch wrote:(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 437-8)
... classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris

Is nuntius subject of effugit? That would make classis genitive, but what to do with invectas Thybridis undam? Unless nuntius can take a substantive clause (classis invectas Thybridis undam) in apposition, which makes classis accusative to agree with invectas, but then invectas would need an active meaning to take undam as direct object.

The latter. I read it as "nuntius" being the subject and "classis invectas Thybridis undam" in apposition, except that "undam" is not a direct object. If you look at the entry for inveho you can see that it can take a bare accusative of place.

(Virgil, Aeneid VII, 540-1)
atque ea per campos aequo dum Marte geruntur,
promissi dea facta potens ...

"dea potens" is subject, but is promissi the noun or a verbal form? Is facta some kind of accusative of respect?

I had no idea about this one but looking it up in commentaries it seems that "facta" is modifying "dea", and literally it's "the goddess, having become master of her promise" = "having fulfilled her promise".
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Re: Summertime Aeneid

Postby ptolemyauletes » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:53 pm

promissi dea facta potens
'The Goddess, having become powerful of the promised thing' meaning 'the goddess, having fulfilled her promise.'

facta is a participle modifying dea.

promissi is also a participle. It is describing a thing that she has promised. The neuter thing is in the genitive case, hence the 'i' ending.

This is a difficult sentence. Poetry frequently bends the rules of grammar, often beyond breaking point. It takes a great deal of imagination sometimes to get the sense.


classis invectas Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris

This is accusative infinitive with an implied verb of speaking. classis is accusative plural, modified by invectas and has undam as a noun of motion with the preposition omitted, a common feature of poetry. 'The message (saying) that the fleet of Thybris has been dragged up onto the shore, has not, as you think, escaped my ears.'
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Re: Summertime Aeneid

Postby adrianus » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:13 pm

Here are some tiny differences of interpretation, Ptolemyauletes,—maybe right, maybe wrong?
En discrimina interpretationis minuscula, ptolemyauletes,—forsàn falsa, forsàn recta?
Hic iuvenis vatem inridens sic orsa vicissim

ore refert: `Classis [=classes] invectas [esse] Thybridis undam
non, ut rere, meas effugit nuntius auris [=aures].


Here the youth, ridiculing by his expression the one prophesying, recounted these words in his turn: "You don't believe that the news that the fleet has entered the Tiber's water [wave] has escaped my ears!"

Atque ea per campos aequo dum Marte geruntur,

promissi dea facta potens, ubi sanguine bellum

imbuit et primae commisit funera pugnae,

deserit Hesperiam et caeli convexa per auras

Iunonem victrix adfatur voce superba:
En perfecta tibi bello discordia tristi.


And while these things were happening throughout the fields/plains with equal Martial spirit, the goddess being done [*], having fulfilled her promise [**] where she has soaked the war with blood and brought about the deaths of the first battle, leaves Hesperia and, borne through the breezes of heaven, triumphant, speaks to Juno in a haughty voice: "Behold the discord that is accomplished for you by sorrowful war!"


* bringing about [her having fulfilled]
** promissi potens in ipso anglicè "having fulfilled [her] promise" vult dicere, ubi "potens" genetivo casui "promissum -i" nominis neutrius generis servat—quod nomen certè in participio primitùs oritur.
Last edited by adrianus on Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summertime Aeneid

Postby dsch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:22 pm

Thank you for your replies, everyone!

adrianus: Wouldn't "you believe that" require "rere ut" rather than "ut rere", which seems to be commonly parenthetical?
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Re: Summertime Aeneid

Postby ptolemyauletes » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:19 am

Yes, unda is of course water, rather than shore... a few translations I came across indicated a landing... I will check Lewis and Short for unda...

As you well know, my translations were intentionally literal in an effort to convey the grammatical structure.

I am sure dsch appreciates your help, as we all do, Adrianus! :)
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