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libra???

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libra???

Postby Interaxus » Sun May 30, 2010 1:15 am

I just read this on page 75 of "The Beginner's Caesar (An open door to Caesar)", 1903, by H.P. Cannon, downloaded from Internet Archive:

"libra Caesaris legimus, we are reading the books of Caesar."

Would the grammarian who can explain this please stand up and be counted...?

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Int
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Re: libra???

Postby Hampie » Sun May 30, 2010 10:56 am

libr.a N 1 1 NOM S F
libr.a N 1 1 ABL S F
libra, librae N F [XXXBX]
scales, balance; level; Roman pound, 12 unciae/ounces; (3/4 pound avoirdupois);
libr.a V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE IMP 2 S
libro, librare, libravi, libratus V [XXXCX]
balance,swing; hurl;

What a confusing word o_O…
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Re: libra???

Postby Hampie » Sun May 30, 2010 12:31 pm

I think that it’s a typo now. Google only shows up two hits when googeling: your thread here, and Archive.org’s OCRed version of the book in question. Maybe the author was tired and confused the singular accusative with the nominative singular, and just made it plural? Libra itself does not mean book, librum is as fas as I’ve found in Perseus and WORDS nothing but the accusative of liber. Libra can either be nominative or ablative of libra, libræ - but it does not mean book, or the imperative of libro, and it does not in any way mean book either.
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Re: libra???

Postby adrianus » Sun May 30, 2010 2:04 pm

Interaxus wrote:Would the grammarian who can explain this please stand up and be counted...?

OLD wrote:librum ~ī, n.: VAR. of LIBER.
emi ergo nunc puero aliquot libra rubricata PETR.46.7
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: libra???

Postby Hampie » Sun May 30, 2010 2:20 pm

adrianus wrote:
Interaxus wrote:Would the grammarian who can explain this please stand up and be counted...?

OLD wrote:librum ~ī, n.: VAR. of LIBER.
emi ergo nunc puero aliquot libra rubricata PETR.46.7

Why could I not find that in my dictionary :/? Stupid books not containing all words *mutters*.
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Re: libra???

Postby adrianus » Sun May 30, 2010 2:30 pm

Well, it's certainly pretty rare! Who would recommend it, to beginners especially?
Ut rarius sit illud verbum! Quis id laudet, praesertim tironibus?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: libra???

Postby Interaxus » Sun May 30, 2010 3:26 pm

Well, it's certainly pretty rare! Who would recommend it, to beginners especially?


Adriane:
I asked myself that same question. :o

Hampie,
Seemingly Google doesn't do the Latin Library. That's where I found the following chapter from the Satiricon (I include the whole 'chapter' because interestingly enough it's partly about learning and teaching latin and Greek):

[XLVI] "Videris mihi, Agamemnon, dicere: 'Quid iste argutat molestus?' Quia tu, qui potes loquere, non loquis. Non es nostrae fasciae, et ideo pauperorum verba derides. Scimus te prae litteras fatuum esse. Quid ergo est? Aliqua die te persuadeam, ut ad villam venias et videas casulas nostras. Inveniemus quod manducemus, pullum, ova: belle erit, etiam si omnia hoc anno tempestas dispare pallavit. Inveniemus ergo unde saturi fiamus. Et iam tibi discipulus crescit cicaro meus. Iam quattuor partis dicit; si vixerit, habebis ad latus servulum. Nam quicquid illi vacat, caput de tabula non tollit. Ingeniosus est et bono filo, etiam si in aves morbosus est. Ego illi iam tres cardeles occidi, et dixi quia mustella comedit. Invenit tamen alias nenias, et libentissime pingit. Ceterum iam Graeculis calcem impingit et Latinas coepit non male appetere, etiam si magister eius sibi placens sit. Nec uno loco consistit, sed venit <raro; scit qui>dem litteras, sed non vult laborare. Est et alter non quidem doctus, sed curiosus, qui plus docet quam scit. Itaque feriatis diebus solet domum venire, et quicquid dederis, contentus est. Emi ergo nunc puero aliquot libra rubricata, quia volo illum ad domusionem aliquid de iure gustare. Habet haec res panem. Nam litteris satis inquinatus est. Quod si resilierit, destinavi illum artificii docere, aut tonstreinum aut praeconem aut certe causidicum, quod illi auferre non possit nisi Orcus. Ideo illi cotidie clamo: "Primigeni, crede mihi, quicquid discis, tibi discis. Vides Phileronem causidicum: si non didicisset, hodie famem a labris non abigeret. Modo, modo, collo suo circumferebat onera venalia; nunc etiam adversus Norbanum se extendit." Litterae thesaurum est, et artificium nunquam moritur".

CHAPTER THE FORTY-SIXTH
"Agamemnon, your looks seem to say, What's this boresome nut trying to hand us?' Well, I'm talking because you, who can talk book-foolishness, won't. You don't belong to our bunch, so you laugh in your sleeve at the way us poor people talk, but we know that you're only a fool with a lot of learning. Well, what of it? Some day I'll get you to come to my country place and take a look at my little estate. We'll have fresh eggs and spring chicken to chew on when we get there; it will be all right even if the weather has kept things back this year. We'll find enough to satisfy us, and my kid will soon grow up to be a pupil of yours; he can divide up to four, now, and you'll have a little servant at your side, if he lives. When he has a minute to himself, he never takes his eyes from his tablets; he's smart too, and has the right kind of stuff in him, even if he is crazy about birds. I've had to kill three of his linnets already. I told him that a weasel had gotten them, but he's found another hobby, now he paints all the time. He's left the marks of his heels on his Greek already, and is doing pretty well with his Latin, although his master's too easy with him; won't make him stick to one thing. He comes to me to get me to give him something to write when his master don't want to work. Then there's another tutor, too, no scholar, but very painstaking, though; he can teach you more than he knows himself. He comes to the house on holidays and is always satisfied with whatever you pay him. Some little time ago, I bought the kid some law books; I want him to have a smattering of the law for home use. There's bread in that! As for literature, he's got enough of that in him already; if he begins to kick, I've concluded that I'll make him learn some trade; the barber's, say, or the auctioneer's, or even the lawyer's. That's one thing no one but the devil can do him out of! 'Believe what your daddy says, Primigenius,' I din into his ears every day, 'whenever you learn a thing, it's yours. Look at Phileros the attorney; he'd not be keeping the wolf from the door now if he hadn't studied. It's not long since he had to carry his wares on his back and peddle them, but he can put up a front with Norbanus himself now! Learning's a fine thing, and a trade won't starve.'"

Cheers,
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Re: libra???

Postby adrianus » Sun May 30, 2010 6:16 pm

I think the translation should be softer.
Molliorem habeam versionem.
"You look to me, Agamemnon, to be saying "Why is that tiresome fellow babbling?" Because you, who can talk, don't talk. You are not one of us [cut from our cloth] and so you laugh at poor men's words. We know you're mad about learning. Never mind! Some day I'll persuade you to come to our farm and see our little cottage. We'll find some grub, chicken, eggs; it'll be nice, even though the weather this year has dried everything out as never before*. That being so, we'll find what will fill us up. And already my dear son is emerging as a pupil for you."

* dispare? without equal?
* pallavit? to have blanched? to have made pale?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: libra???

Postby adrianus » Sun May 30, 2010 7:20 pm

Also, since the speaker is uneducated, his grammar not the best, "libra" for "books" could very well be a deliberately funny error. (You have also "loquis" not "loqueris", "loquere" not "loqui" etc.)

Porrò, dum indoctus sit orator, cuius latinitas vix amabilissima est, soloecismus pro "libros" benè possible sit "libra", qui consultò ridere faciat. (Et habes "loquis" pro "loqueris", "loquere" pro "loqui" et caetera.)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: libra???

Postby Interaxus » Sun May 30, 2010 8:25 pm

Adriane:
You provide food for thought.

The translation is by W. C. Firebaugh at Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/5219/5219-h/5219-h.htm

I’m not advanced enough to have an opinion myself but thanks for giving me an excuse to examine the text more closely. I find focusing on content helps me learn structure.

Actually, “tu, qui potes loquere, non loquis” reminds me of “why do you never speak? Speak!” from the Waste Land. After all, Eliot kick-starts his poem with the famous quote from Petronius:

"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerunt: Síbulla tí théleis; respondebat illa: apothaneîn thélo." (For with my own eyes I saw the Sibyl hanging in a jar at Cumae, and when the boys said to her, 'Sibyl, what do you want?' she replied, 'I want to die)

Sorry, this was scarcely relevant. :oops:

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Int
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Re: libra???

Postby adrianus » Sun May 30, 2010 9:04 pm

I'm not expert enough for anyone to depend on my judgement. It doesn't stop me having them and throwing them about, though. But that's a very keen observation about the Wasteland.

Non satìs peritus sum ut ullus judicio meo nitatur. Non prohibet autem me ea libenter habere et emittere. At acerrima observatio tua de Heremo cantu apud Eliot.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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