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Masternig latin vocabulary

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Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby Pwyll » Mon May 03, 2010 12:22 pm

Hi all, I am learning latin for two years by my own, but I found myself on a point, where it is still too uneffective for me just read the old texts with not understanding even not the every second word and looking to the dictionary for the whole time, and yet i cannot find a succesful wordlist in any latin book, nor on the Internet. (succesful means the one, I do not know more than half of the words of, and it would be perfect, if there were macrons above long vowels, and also a morphological types marked by suffix, -es, as is common practise.) I know I am pretty demanding, but if you can write latin so good as I can see here, you had to overcome this point. I would like to ask you then what was your modus in mastering latin vocabulary ? Thank you much...
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby Hampie » Mon May 03, 2010 8:45 pm

I myself have found two or three PD-editions of Cicero speeches complete with macrons and wordlist. What text are you reading?
Här kan jag i alla fall skriva på svenska, eller hur?
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby edonnelly » Tue May 04, 2010 3:20 pm

In 1939 Paul Diederich wrote his doctoral thesis ( http://users.erols.com/whitaker/freq.htm ) on latin word frequency. He found that there were basically 1400 latin vocabulary words that would allow you to know the meaning of 85% of the latin words you will encounter in classical texts:

We therefore predict that this basic vocabulary will enable the reader to recognize directly about 85 per cent (in round numbers) of all the words he will ever read In Latin literature and to deduce the meaning of about 10 per cent more as derivatives or compounds of known words, or as obvious roots of known English derivatives. The line was drawn at this point because the group of words next highest in frequency would enable the reader to recognize directly only an additional 7 per cent of the vocabulary of Latin literature after learning about 1,000 additional words. Of the 1,471 words in the basic vocabulary, about 400 are so closely related in form and meaning to English derivatives and cognates that, in the experience of the writer, they can either be guessed or learned very easily by the average beginning class in secondary schools. This reduces the burden of memorizing the basic vocabulary to about 1,000 words, which should be learned by secondary school pupils in two years, or in one year by the mature reader In college or in later life. It is hoped that these words will be embodied in easy reading materials, or selected for special emphasis from present reading materials, and learned as they occur in reading.


He then categorized these words to make them easier to learn:
Classifications Used in the Recommended Basic Vocabulary


I. Nouns and Related Words

1. Gods
2. Time
3. Sky
4. Fire
5. Water
6. Earth
7. Plants
8. Food
9. Animals
10. People
11. Body
12. Mind
13. Peelings
14. Talk
15. Writing
16. Work and Play
17. City and Buildings
18. Military
19. Government
20. Social Approval
21. Evil
22. Death
23. Abstractions and Unclassified


II. Pronouns


III. Verbs and Related Words

1. Verbs Which Express or Affect the Location of the Subject
2. Verbs Which Affect the Location of the Object
3. Verbs Which Express or Affect the State of the Subject
4. Verbs Which Affect the State of the Object
5. Constructive Activities 6. Destructive Activities
7. Verbs Affecting Other Verbs
8. Vocal Activities
9. Mental and Sensory Operations
10. Favor
11. Disfavor


IV. AdJectives and Related Words

1. Size
2. Number
3. Texture-Density
4. Appearance
5. Position
6. Time
7. Favorable
8. Unfavorable
9. Unclassified


V. Adverbs

1. Time
2. Place
3. Cause-Manner
4. Adversative


VI. Interjections


VII. Conjunctions


VIII. Prepositions and Prefixes


You can see the full list here: http://users.erols.com/whitaker/freqrec.htm

(No macrons, but I think it is really an incredible and under-utilized resource).
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby Scribo » Tue May 04, 2010 3:56 pm

Dr Dedrichs Latin via frequency is your one stop shop really, you should be able to recognise about 80% of words from that. However it is a bit extreme for first recourse, no? Unless you're really dedicated.

I personally would suggest something like the beginners vocab on this site or something, the one with 700 words or so, once you have those start to learn how words work: adding suffixes to compound verbs, forming abstract and agentive nouns etc and start reading. If after a while it's still really laborious just use our good doctor.
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby edonnelly » Tue May 04, 2010 9:10 pm

He's been studying for two years. Hopefully a lot of those words can be scratched off the list right away.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby thesaurus » Tue May 04, 2010 11:10 pm

edonnelly wrote:He's been studying for two years. Hopefully a lot of those words can be scratched off the list right away.


I know it's the wrong forum, but is there a comparable list or study for Greek?

Alio in foro scripsissem debeo, sed estne charta huic similis pro lingua Graeca?
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby edonnelly » Wed May 05, 2010 2:29 am

thesaurus wrote:I know it's the wrong forum, but is there a comparable list or study for Greek?


I would love to know the answer to that question as well. There is a book on Amazon that claims to have "1500 words in common use among classical Greek historians, orators and philosophers" and they seem to be organized in a somewhat similar way to the latin list, but I have no idea if it is any good or not (plus it's a book you have to buy -- not nearly as good as a list you have on the internet and which you can play with all you want):

Classical Greek Prose: A Basic Vocabulary

You could also try to make your own list with the Perseus vocabulary tool, but obviously that wouldn't be sorted the way the others are:

Perseus Greek Vocab tool

Imagine what a tool like that would have done for someone like Diederich back in 1939!
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby thesaurus » Wed May 05, 2010 4:42 am

edonnelly wrote:Imagine what a tool like that would have done for someone like Diederich back in 1939!


It means he would have to figure out a new topic for his dissertation :)

Thank you for those resources!
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby Scribo » Wed May 05, 2010 10:27 am

I have a Greek exam tomorrow (poetry, prose and random unseen, though it will probably be Thucydides again lol) and I would absolutely love there to have been such a tool, however in two years of searching I haven't found one.

There is a set of flashcards on Ankii, but that's biblical Greek...

Over summer I may utilise the Perseus tools and create my own database.


EDIT: Brief list in the Greek http://www.etoncollege.com/OCRASWordList.aspx
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Re: Masternig latin vocabulary

Postby edonnelly » Tue May 11, 2010 10:28 pm

edonnelly wrote:In 1939 Paul Diederich ... found that there were basically 1400 latin vocabulary words that would allow you to know the meaning of 85% of the latin words you will encounter in classical texts.


For the heck of it I made a little Windows Mobile Phone app that will quiz you on these 1400, grouped using Dr. Diederich's categories. It's pretty Spartan, but if anyone has a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone (probably needs to be VGA with a touch screen to work) and wants it, let me know. It definitely will not work on non-windows phones and I haven't the slightest idea how to make one for anything else.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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