Textkit Logo

Classical latin alphabet.

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby Essorant » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:55 am

It doesn't matter that much to me. Latin u and i are still Latin u and i, whether you spell them as u and i or v and j.
Essorant
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:35 pm
Location: Regina, SK; Canada

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby Alatius » Sat May 08, 2010 8:33 am

I suspect that most things to be said have already been said, but I want to share this fabulous, very old papyrus I recently found out about:
http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VEx ... chius.html
(You can click on the little thumbnail to get a readable picture.)
This can be transcribed as follows (see this book):

suneros ·chio suo·plur·sal·s u b ·theo adduxsit·ad·me·ohapim
regium·mensularium·oxsyrychitem·qui quidem·mecum·est·locutus
de·inprobitate·epaphraes ·itaque·nihil·ultra·loquor·quam·[[no]]
ne patiarus·te·propter·illos·perire ·crede·mihi·nimia·bonitas
pernicies·homin[i]bus est \uel·maxsuma/ ·deinde·ipse·tibei·de·mostrabit
qu[i]t·rei·sit·qum·illum·adte·uocareis ·set·perseruera
qui·de·tampusilla·summa·tam·magnum·lucrum·facit
dominum·occidere·uolt ·deinde·ego·clamare·debeo·siquod·uideo
deuom·atque·hominum·[[fidem si tu·ista·non·cuibis]]
tuum·erit·uindicare·ne alio·libeat·facere

This is written in the Older Roman cursive, the same script as in the Vindolanda tablets. The letter that in monumental inscriptions would look like "V" is written rounded, usually with a little tail, exactly as our "u". There is (of course) no distinction made between the consonant and the vowel.

Another thing to note is the dots used to divide words. And even though there are no other interpunctations, sentences are usually divided by greater spaces.

There are no apices here, as far as I can see.
Alatius
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Upsalia, Suecia

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby adrianus » Sat May 08, 2010 1:36 pm

That's an interesting collection of docs, Alatius. Here it is on http://www.archive.org.
Ea collectio papyrorum mihi curae est, Alati. En apud http://www.archive.org.
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=The%20Oxyrhynchus%20Papyri
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby Hampie » Sat May 08, 2010 2:48 pm

ireallydonotseethepointofthisargumentsincethetruewayofwiritingduringalongtimewasthisanditsnotveryreadabletoanyone

Why should we write like the romans did? They’re dead. Latin was still kept alive during mediaeval times and the renaissance - it’s not less of latin just because it’s not during the golden age of the roman empire. Latin composed during the 19th century is just as much latin as Cicero’s writings.

To be honest: they did not even use the same alphabet as we do. Just look at it: the roman cursive handwriting is totally illegible for anyone that has not undergone extensive palaeographic training. I’m all in favour for releasing for publishing latin written in that way, just for fun, but I would not tell anyone to adopt that kind of handwriting because it would not be real latin unless they did.

How many would think german was not german unless written with the fracture or the very special handwriting employed alongside? Many before 1944. Same goes for many germanic languages, who used the fracture for long when romance languages had switched to the style with we use today. In text containing both latin and a germanic language, they switched between fracture and the antiqua as they switched languages. Today, that’s almost absurd to most of us.

·BUT·SURE·WE·COULD·WRITE·LATIN·LIKE·THIS·IF·WE·WOULD·WANT·TO·WRITE·LIKE·THE·ROMANS·DID·AND·ONLY·USE·WORDS·THAT·IS·IN·O·L·D·BUT·TO·BE·HONEST·HOW·ANNOYING·AND·STUPID·WOULD·THAT·NOT·BE·UNLESS·JUST·DONE·FOR·FUN·AND·WOULD·IT·REALLY·GIVE·ANYONE·ANYTHING·IF·WE·WROTE·IT·LIKE·THIS·HONESTLY·
Här kan jag i alla fall skriva på svenska, eller hur?
User avatar
Hampie
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:51 pm
Location: Holmia, Suecia

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby adrianus » Sat May 08, 2010 4:14 pm

Hampie wrote:ireallydonotseethepointofthisargumentsincethetruewayofwiritingduringalongtimewasthisanditsnotveryreadabletoanyone

I would say it's very readable by everyone!
Omnibus facile lectu adusquè est, dico.

Hampie wrote:...but I would not tell anyone to adopt that kind of handwriting because it would not be real latin unless they did.

Nor is anyone saying that, Hampie. Possibly you misunderstand.
Nec ullus qui sic urget. Fortassè secús accipis.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby Hampie » Sat May 08, 2010 5:39 pm

adrianus wrote:
Hampie wrote:ireallydonotseethepointofthisargumentsincethetruewayofwiritingduringalongtimewasthisanditsnotveryreadabletoanyone

I would say it's very readable by everyone!
Omnibus facile lectu adusquè est, dico.

Hampie wrote:...but I would not tell anyone to adopt that kind of handwriting because it would not be real latin unless they did.

Nor is anyone saying that, Hampie. Possibly you misunderstand.
Nec ullus qui sic urget. Fortassè secús accipis.

1. Haha, it’s certainly harder than reading normally inter-punctuated text :P.

2. I think someone justified using the uir-spelling (as opposed to the vir-spelling) by means of that was they way latin was written or something alike. I don’t recall. It made sense when I wrote it. Anyhow, my point is, that it’s a pretty unnecessary thing to fight about. I myself use æ and œ whenever possible, alongside with j and v, and like when macrons are used.
Här kan jag i alla fall skriva på svenska, eller hur?
User avatar
Hampie
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:51 pm
Location: Holmia, Suecia

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby furrykef » Sat May 08, 2010 6:04 pm

QVOTHOMINESTOTSENTENTIÆ :mrgreen:
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
I also have a lang-8 journal where I practice Spanish and Japanese.
User avatar
furrykef
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:18 am

Re: Classical latin alphabet.

Postby Evertype » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:45 pm

vastor wrote:And therein lies the problem, the phonetics of j are completely different across europe, and so the rationale for using it evaporates.
Yes. It is used for [j] and for [ʒ] and for [dʒ].

I strongly disagree with the argument that both j and u have equal merit. u is quite phonetically consistent across europe, so its case for inclusion has a greater weight.
This is incorrect. u is pronounced [uː] and [ʊ] and [y] and [ɨ] and [iː] and [ʌ] in Europe.
User avatar
Evertype
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 9:07 pm

Previous

Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], ed-lanty, Google Adsense [Bot], Nina, pmda, swtwentyman, truks and 74 guests