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Livy

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Livy

Postby Einhard » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:45 pm

Salvete omnes,

I'm just going over some excerpts from Ab Urbe Condita again and, as seems to be a pattern when it comes to Livy, there's a few that are causing trouble. Any advice on the following is, as always, appreciated:

Cum sui utrosque adhortarentur, deos patrios, patriam ac parentes, quidquid civium domi, quidquid in exercitu sit, illorum tunc arma, illorum intueri manus, feroces et suopte ingenio et pleni adhortantium vocibus, in medium inter duas acies procedunt

With each side urging their own that the native Gods, the fatherland and the parents, the citizens at home, whomever was in the army, were watching, thereupon the arms of those peoples, their band, advanced, both ferocious and with a spirit filled with voices of exhortation, into the gap between the two armies

Itaque ergo erecti suspensique in minime gratum spectaculum animos intendunt

And so, resolute and upright, they turn their spirits towards a might spectacle at least

Ad quorum casum cum conclamasset gaudio Albanus exercitus, Romanas legiones iam spes tota, nondum tamen cura deseruerat, exanimes vice unius quem tres Curiatii circumsteterant

While the Alban army cheered with delight at their fall, total hope had neverthless not yet deserted the Roman host, breathless with the plight of the one who the three Curatii had surrounded

I'm pretty certain I've got the essence correct here, but I'm not sure where "cura" fits. Perhaps "total hope and care"?

Iam aliquantum spatii ex eo loco ubi pugnatum est aufugerat, cum respiciens videt magnis intervallis sequentes, unum haud procul ab sese abesse

Now some distance from that place where he had fled, he was fought [?], when looking back he saw them following at a great distance, that one was not at all distant from himself

Alterum intactum ferro corpus et geminata victoria ferocem in certamen tertium dabat; alter, fessum vulnere, fessum cursu trahens corpus victusque fratrum ante se strage, victori obicitur hosti

The uninjured man gives the other a blow with the sword and victory doubled gives a third; the other, having been beaten and body weary with the wound, tired through running, dragging himself before the ruin of his brothers, casts himself before the victorious soldier

Male sustinenti arma gladium superne iugulo defigit

Barely supporting the weapons he plunged the sword into his throat from above

The notes state that "sustinenti" is a dative of reference, but they seem to have almost infinite tranlsation possibilities. Saying that though, I'm not sure my translation is amongst them.

Romani ovantes ac gratulantes Horatium accipiunt, eo maiore cum gaudio prope metum res fuerat

The rejoicing and cheering Romans receieve the Horatius, with praise all the greater as the battle was nearly [?]

I think I have the essence of what's implied here, but I can't for the life of me figure "metum". I know it's fear/dread/anxiety as a noun, but I don't see how that would fit here as a nom.

And last but not least, there's "super alium alius" which I can't decide whether to translate as "one after another" or "one over another".

Anyway, that's me finished with Livy for a while. I can't exactly say that it's been fun; indeed, my head invariably feels like it's been stuffed with cotton wool after a few hours wading through his words. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Valete.
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Re: Livy

Postby thesaurus » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:35 pm

Cum sui utrosque adhortarentur, deos patrios, patriam ac parentes, quidquid civium domi, quidquid in exercitu sit, illorum tunc arma, illorum intueri manus, feroces et suopte ingenio et pleni adhortantium vocibus, in medium inter duas acies procedunt

With each side urging their own that the native Gods, the fatherland and the parents, the citizens at home, whomever was in the army, were watching, thereupon the arms of those peoples, their band, advanced, both ferocious and with a spirit filled with voices of exhortation, into the gap between the two armies


I'd say, "With each side urging their own to consider the native gods, their fatherland and parents, those citizens at home or in the army, then their arms and their band of soldiers, they proceed into the middle between the two battle-lines, ferocious both on account of their own nature and [because they were] filled with the voices of their supporters."

As I read it, "cum... manus" forms the lead up to the action in the main clause. By taking "adhortarentur" with "intueri" you get an injunction for the fighters. "feroces" precedes the "et ... et" to explain that they are ferocious for those two reasons. "quidquid . . . sit" is a partitive genitive, "whomever of the citizens is at home, whomever is in the army."

Itaque ergo erecti suspensique in minime gratum spectaculum animos intendunt

And so, resolute and upright, they turn their spirits towards a might spectacle at least


"And so, upright and uncertain, they turn their spirits towards a none too pleasant sight."

Literally, "in minime gratum spectaculum" means "towards a sight that is not at all pleasant." I take "suspensi" to mean something similar to our "in suspense."

Ad quorum casum cum conclamasset gaudio Albanus exercitus, Romanas legiones iam spes tota, nondum tamen cura deseruerat, exanimes vice unius quem tres Curiatii circumsteterant

While the Alban army cheered with delight at their fall, total hope had nevertheless not yet deserted the Roman host, breathless with the plight of the one who the three Curatii had surrounded

I'm pretty certain I've got the essence correct here, but I'm not sure where "cura" fits. Perhaps "total hope and care"?


"As the Alban army cheered with delight at their fall, all hope--but not yet all concern--deserted the Roman legions, [who were] breathless on account of one whom the three Curatii had surrounded." Livy is setting up a contrast between spes and cura, which he signals by "nondum tamen." Basically, although the Romans had lost hope, they still had cause for concern because their own men were still in danger. I take cura to mean their concern and sense of responsibility for their fellow soldier.

Iam aliquantum spatii ex eo loco ubi pugnatum est aufugerat, cum respiciens videt magnis intervallis sequentes, unum haud procul ab sese abesse

Now some distance from that place where he had fled, he was fought [?], when looking back he saw them following at a great distance, that one was not at all distant from himself


"Now he had fled some distance from the place of battle [lit. where it was fought], when looking back he saw them following at a great distance, and that one was not far distant from himself."

Pugnare is impersonal in the passive. "He" is the subject of "aufugerat."

Alterum intactum ferro corpus et geminata victoria ferocem in certamen tertium dabat; alter, fessum vulnere, fessum cursu trahens corpus victusque fratrum ante se strage, victori obicitur hosti

The uninjured man gives the other a blow with the sword and victory doubled gives a third; the other, having been beaten and body weary with the wound, tired through running, dragging himself before the ruin of his brothers, casts himself before the victorious soldier


Not too sure about this sentence myself. You seem to leave out "ferocem in certamen." "victusque fratrum ante se strage" I read as "defeated [i.e., mentally] by the slaughter of his brothers before him [before his eyes]." "victori obicitur hosti" reads "is pitted against the victorious soldier."

Male sustinenti arma gladium superne iugulo defigit

Barely supporting the weapons he plunged the sword into his throat from above

The notes state that "sustinenti" is a dative of reference, but they seem to have almost infinite tranlsation possibilities. Saying that though, I'm not sure my translation is amongst them.


I read the dative phrase as referring to the man who is killed. "He plunges his sword from above into the throat of the man, who barely supports his weapons."

Romani ovantes ac gratulantes Horatium accipiunt, eo maiore cum gaudio prope metum res fuerat

The rejoicing and cheering Romans receieve the Horatius, with praise all the greater as the battle was nearly [?]

I think I have the essence of what's implied here, but I can't for the life of me figure "metum". I know it's fear/dread/anxiety as a noun, but I don't see how that would fit here as a nom.


You seem to have left out "quo" after "gaudio," which is a key word for this construction.

"Romani ovantes ac gratulantes Horatium accipiunt eo maiore cum gaudio, quo prope metum res fuerat."
"The rejoicing and cheering Romans receive Horatius with that much more delight because the battle was so uncertain [i.e. was "near fear"]."

"eo . . . quo" is a correlative construction meaning something like "as much . . . so much."

And last but not least, there's "super alium alius" which I can't decide whether to translate as "one after another" or "one over another".

"duo romani super alium alius . . . exspirantes corruerunt."
I get the sense of them dying "one on top of the other."
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Livy

Postby Tertius Robertus » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:33 pm

some quick comments:

Cum sui utrosque adhortarentur, deos patrios, patriam ac parentes, quidquid civium domi, quidquid in exercitu sit, illorum tunc arma, illorum intueri manus, feroces et suopte ingenio et pleni adhortantium vocibus, in medium inter duas acies procedunt


this second part is to be taken as the speech pronunced by each side to exort their companions: "the native gods, the fatherland and parents etc are looking after your gears (arms) and your hands."

Alterum intactum ferro corpus et geminata victoria ferocem in certamen tertium dabat


lit.:"the other's body, untouched, and the double victory, (each) made (the man) eager to a third fight."
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