rightio...I'll do that as well to the best of my ability
Looking forward to your response.
ο ηκουσατε απ αρχης 1 John 2:24
This is interesting. Did the writer have the Gospel Message in mind at this point in time. We see some what of a reverse order here? heard from the beginning verses what was from the beginning you heard.
I wonder what the implications are here?
ο ην απ αρχης ο ακηκοαμεν ο εωρακαμεν 1 John 1:1
In 1 John 1:1 we see the writer speaking of the idea of the historical fact of Christ but in light of 1 John 2:24 that idea might change.
still remains about what ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς was referring to in 1 John 1:1
GTM wrote:jaiharestill remains about what ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς was referring to in 1 John 1:1
I believe that it means the time before time which was when the Father and the Son were in intimate relationship before Creation began.
First: In the Gospel we see a sequence in the prologue. It begins with "εν αρχη " . It then speaks of the relationship between the Father and the Son.(Verse 1) "και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον" or "And the Word was with God". (Verse 2) the same was in the Beginning with God.(ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον) After that we see an account of creation. "δι αυτου" Jesus was the secondary agency by which creation was accomplished.
Since John was a writer who seems to want to keep things in order I would assume that this was a parrel to Genesis in a sense but with more understanding.
Second: 1 John 1:2 (Westcott Hort) ην προς τον πατερα is a perfect example.
According to Vincent "ην προς τον πατερα" speaks of eternity of relationship.
The preposition of motion with the verb or repose involves eternity.
but the ὃ in each instance seems to be their own testimony -- what they have seen and heard and felt and touched and beheld. It is the basis of his own faith. The author is saying, "I know this because I've seen it, I've touched it, I've felt it."
But it's certainly not true that the author was in the beginning.
I think this "beginning" is referring to the beginning of the Christian account -- since the author is basically saying, "I was there in the beginning when this happened, and my eyes have seen it." The reason for the proclamation to the audience is so that they can share the experience with those who actually had it first-hand.
."So that you might have fellowship" doesn't mean "so that we can eat bread and share together". It means "so that what I've experienced you can also experience -- and we will have this in common". The introduction is set up to cement the author's right to act as a witness to events that he saw in the beginning of the Christian era and has absolutely nothing to do with eternity
The only reference to eternity is when he mentions "eternal life" and says that it was "with the father", which is perfectly acceptable in this parenthetical without destroying the flow of the string of relative clauses.
GTM wrote:I agree! However I understand the ο ην απ αρχης as being a type of direct object in apposition to απαγγελλομεν.
It is, after all, not the eternality that he's announcing but the message that was received from the beginning, as opposed to the "Johnny come lately" gospels that he was opposing, which were being proclaimed by the "antichrists" of chapter 2.
What I disagree with, though, is setting the ἀρχή of this phrase (ὃ ἦν ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς) as the same as the parenthetical reference to eternal life, in which the relative clause ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα is used. While the latter is, I think indisputably, a reference to eternity past