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Lyra short sentence, need help

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Lyra short sentence, need help

Postby COPLAND 3 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:20 pm

I have a short sentence that I was hoping someone could take a crack at, it comes from Nicholas of Lyra on 2 Thessalonians 2:4, I think I transcribed it correct, other than the *, I think it migt be an &

In templo. Reaedificato ab ipso, * Iudaeis sibi adbaerentibus. Exponunt in templo, idest, sic se oftendet ac si ipse sit templum de modo, quo bumanitas Christi est dei templunc.

Here is the link to where it is found if you need to consult it, it is found at the bottom right hand corner of pg 672 http://www.archive.org/stream/bibliorum ... 1/mode/2up
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Re: Lyra short sentence, need help

Postby thesaurus » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:20 pm

COPLAND 3 wrote:I have a short sentence that I was hoping someone could take a crack at, it comes from Nicholas of Lyra on 2 Thessalonians 2:4, I think I transcribed it correct, other than the *, I think it migt be an &

In templo. Reaedificato ab ipso, * Iudaeis sibi adbaerentibus. Exponunt in templo, idest, sic se oftendet ac si ipse sit templum de modo, quo bumanitas Christi est dei templunc.

Here is the link to where it is found if you need to consult it, it is found at the bottom right hand corner of pg 672 http://www.archive.org/stream/bibliorum ... 1/mode/2up


My transcription:
Sic transcribo:
"in templo. reaedificato ab ipso, & Iudaeis sibi adhaerentibus. exponunt in templo, idest, sic se ostendet ac si ipse sit templum de modo, quo humanitas Christi est dei templum."


My translation:
Sic verto:
"In the temple: rebuilt by himself, and the Jews who follow him. They put forth [set out?] in the temple, that is, he holds himself forth thus, and if he himself is the temple of the mode/manner, by which the humanity of Christ is the temple of God.


I write "he," but the referent could be he/she/it. Not sure what the author intends by "de modo." Isolated words are hard to translate, given that the greater context of his commentary seems very important to his meaning. He also writes in a clipped style.

"He" scribo, sed verba he/she/it intendere possunt. Nescio quid auctor verbis "de modo" significet. Cum contextus valde sententiae auctoris refert, verba cum se ipsis stantes vertendo obfendunt. Stylo etiam praeciso scribit.

I just want to say that the page layout of that source is really something interesting. It mimics the kind of elaborate, multi-layered commentary you get in some medieval manuscripts, except in printed form. I gather than the Biblical verse is in the middle (in large type), while the sentence is question is a comment on the words "in templo." I see that Nicolaus de Lyra has assembled various statements by authorities on this verse, and then provided his own commentary at the end of the chain. Is this an example of a catena?

Dicere volo speciem huius paginae mihi valde interesse. Videtur imitari commentaria plexa inter circraque lineas scripta quae in manuscriptis temporis mediaevalis inveniri solent. Hic autem haud scripta sunt, immo impressa. Mea sententia, versus biblicus in medio est literis magnis scriptus, sententia quam adfers commentarium super verba "in templo" est. Videlicet Nicolaus de Lyra multas sententias doctorum una collegit, tum commentarium suum fine catenae scripsit. Estne hoc catena?

Obiter: I just read the introduction to the incredibly fascinating The Book Of Memory: A Study of Memory in Medieval Culture, and the author briefly discussed Aquinas's Catena Aurea as an example of how he composed mentally, from memory. Apparently Aquinas would work almost entirely from memory, ordering all the commentaries that he read in head, then composing his own ideas before dictating them to scribes. He is said to have dictated multiple arguments simultaneously to three or four different scribes. Amazing!

By the way, nuper proeemium libri nomine "The Book of Memory: A Study of Memory in Medieval Culture" legi, quo in libro auctor de Aquinae Catena Aurea passim scripsit ut eum solentem e memoria scribere ostendat. Videtur e memoria Aquinas paene semper pangere, omnia commentaria quae usquam legat seriatim in mentem ponere priusquam scribis textum suum dictare. Fertur eodem tempore disputationes varias scribis tribus vel etiam quattuor dictavisse. Mirum!
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Lyra short sentence, need help

Postby COPLAND 3 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:00 pm

thesaurus,

Thank you very much! That gloss is called the glossa ordinaria, which is an amazing work (or many works from many hands), much like the Catena Aurea from Aquinas that you mentioned. I wish that I was fluent in Latin because I could really use the glossa for the work that I am doing right now where I am putting together catenas like the one Aquinas did on the Gospels. I have lots of ancient commentaries from the Fathers of the Church that I use, and my library continues to grow, but the glossa has many extracts that have not been translated into English. There has been portions translated, such as the one on Lamentations as a PHD dissertation, and one on the Song of Songs, but the biggest part of it has never been. If somone or a team was ever to translate it it would be a great achievement that would contribute so much to the world of Biblical studies.

I've taken Latin and know enough to find my way around a text, but really I stink at translating. I sure wish I had your skills, I could sure use them!
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Re: Lyra short sentence, need help

Postby thesaurus » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:07 am

Thanks for the information on your project.

COPLAND 3 wrote:I've taken Latin and know enough to find my way around a text, but really I stink at translating. I sure wish I had your skills, I could sure use them!


Practice, practice, practice! I didn't always know Latin, and there is still much that I do not know. I can't think of a better way to learn Latin than by spending all your time working on texts that you already are very passionate about. Most people's interest piddles out with their interest. While these catenas may not be the most clear of all Latin prose, with some perseverance you could become a very able translator (especially if you restrain yourself to this genre of writing).
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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