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Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

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Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby pster » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:15 am

Here is Socrates at 27d addressing the plural jury with two singluar (3p) imperatives. Mastronarde actually says nothing about singluar vs. plural usage as far as I can see. What is up with this usage? (I could have looked it up in Smyth, but I felt like trying to get a bit active again in the forum :) )

ἀποκρινέσθω, ὦ ἄνδρες, καὶ μὴ ἄλλα καὶ ἄλλα θορυβείτω
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:14 pm

Basically, even though the imperatives are addressed to the jury, the subject of each verb is Meletus, so the verb is singular. That's the grammatical reason at least.
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby pster » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:46 pm

I believe you, but I still don't see it especially for the second imperative. Seems like he is telling the jury to not make noise in the second instance. How is M the subject of that?
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:58 pm

My understanding is that instead of answering, Meletus is making some kind of noise or disturbance. I also find it tempting to think that Socrates is telling the jury to not interrupt especially with him having just reminded them not to do that, but I think what's going on here is that Meletus is just being stubborn and he's having to be forced to answer.
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby LSorenson » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:57 pm

Got a reference (Author-Book-Page-Section) or a Mastronarde reference.

I'm thinking you are reading something from Plato's Apologia Socratis....

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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby NateD26 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:06 pm

The fact that it's a 3rd person imperative, but a plural vocative, suggests he is telling the jury
to let x, here Meletus, do something.

edit: i was wrong in my initial translation. second imperative is active, not passive.

why is ἄλλος in plural here? does it still mean "in one thing after another"?
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby NateD26 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:38 am

I truly do not understand why the second imperative is active. if it were passive, θορυβείσθω,
it'd be taken as a polite, indirect way of urging the jury not to cause uproar over and over.
"and let him not be interrupted again and again", i.e. "καὶ μὴ ἄ. καὶ ἄ. θoρυβεῖτε"
as he did in 17d1, 27b1 & 30c3 (inf. with the jury as its subject); 20e4 (prohibitive aor. subj.); and 21a5 & 30c2 (2nd pl. imp.).

Throughout the Apology, we see this verb used in this manner with the jury in mind. Why was it changed here?
What did Meletus do/say at that point which made Socrates directly ask of him to not cause a disturbance?
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:34 pm

NateD26 wrote:why is ἄλλος in plural here? does it still mean "in one thing after another"?

For the plural, I'd say this is an example of an "internal object" since θορυβῶ is intransitive, and if you look at Smyth 1573, neuter pronouns and such are usually plural. I understand it more adverbially, something like "more and more" but basically the same idea.

NateD26 wrote:Throughout the Apology, we see this verb used in this manner with the jury in mind. Why was it changed here?
What did Meletus do/say at that point which made Socrates directly ask of him to not cause a disturbance?

I don't think we'll ever know. We don't seem to be getting the whole picture, but Socrates does tell Meletus "εἰ μὴ σὺ βούλει ἀποκρίνεσθαι, ἐγὼ σοὶ λέγω καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις τουτοισί" and later when Meletus does finally answer, he says "ὡς ὤνησας ὅτι μόγις ἀπεκρίνω ὑπὸ τουτωνὶ ἀναγκαζόμενος", so Meletus was doing something that required the jury to step in and force him to answer, rather than the jury doing something that didn't allow Meletus to answer.
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby NateD26 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:39 pm

I see it now. Thank you, modus.
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby NateD26 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:56 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:...and later when Meletus does finally answer, he says "ὡς ὤνησας ὅτι μόγις ἀπεκρίνω ὑπὸ τουτωνὶ ἀναγκαζόμενος",
so Meletus was doing something that required the jury to step in and force him to answer, rather than the jury doing something that didn't
allow Meletus to answer.

In relation to this line, the ὡς + verb here is read as an exclamatory sentence (at least by most translations).
But is the ὅτι here the reason for this exclamation "how you pleased me because you scarcely answered when coerced by these men here",
or some acc. of respect from ὅστις, "...in that you scarcely answered..."
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:42 pm

I'm not sure of the distinction you're making -- "because" and "in that" would seem to mean the same here.
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby NateD26 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:13 pm

Sorry. I was not aware that "in that" is idiom for "because/for the reason that".
I guess my question is what should be the meaning of ὅτι in this context?
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:58 am

I would say it gives the reason for why it pleased him, and translate it as "in that" (which sounds more natural than "because" here) or even "in/by answering..."
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Re: Singular vs. Plural Imperatives.

Postby Japcy07 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:26 am

Hi, I am new to this forum.How can I get in to the topic?Would it be giving ideas about Imperatives?Any help?
Thank you!
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