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Caesar Ciceroni

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Caesar Ciceroni

Postby adrianus » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:58 am

I can't find this letter of Caesar to Cicero anywhere other than in Christoph Cellarius, Caesaris Commentarii De Bello Gallico et Civili (Lipsiae, 1746). Does anyone know another source? mistakes in my trans.?

Hanc epistulam aliter quàm in libro Christophori Cellarii invenire non possum. Ecquis novit alium eius fontem? suntne errores a me facti in vertendo?

Christoph Cellarius, Caesaris Commentarii De Bello Gallico et Civili (Lipsiae, 1746), p.716, wrote:C. IVLII CAESARIS FRAGMENTA EX LIBRIS EPISTOLARUM AD M.T. CICERONEM

CAESAR IMP. S. D. CICERONI IMP.

Quum Furnium nostrum tantum vidissem, neque loqui, neque audire commode potuisset. quum properarem, atque essem in itinere, praemissis iam legionibus: praeterire tamen non potui, quin & scriberam ad te & illum mitterem, gratiasque agerem. etsi hoc officium & feci saepe, & saepius mihi facturus videor: ita & de me mereris, in primis a te peto, quoniam confido me celeriter ad urbem venturum, ut te ibi videam; ut tuo consilio, gratia, dignitate, ope omnium rerum uti possim. Ad propositum revertar: festinationi meae gravitatique litterarm ignosces, reliqua ex Furnio cognosces. Vale.

Ex Cic. lib. IX. ad Attic. cp. VI.

"Although I had seen our Furnius a lot, I hadn't been able to comfortably listen or talk, as I was in a hurry and on the march, with the legions already sent ahead: however I couldn't neglect to write to you and send him and thank you. Even if this visit is one I have often made, & one I see myself making more often in the future, and so you deserve it from me, above all I ask of you, since I expect that I will be arriving soon near the city, that I would see you there, so that I might be able to avail of your advice, goodwill, grace and influence in all things. I must return to the matter in hand: please forgive my haste and the heavy handwriting. You'll learn the rest from Furnius. Bye."
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby adrianus » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:37 am

Forgive me. I see it now lots of places.
Mihi ignoscatis. Nunc eam passim reperio.

E.g., here, if a little different from the version above:
Exempli gratiâ, hôc in sito, etsi paulò mutata hîc est ab illâ suprá:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uAUK-BdeeAUC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=CAESAR+IMP.+S.+D.+CICERONI+IMP.&source=bl&ots=jJllhYkUEV&sig=nUv0SSZSGyVsuyqiJ_suGwqZXIE&hl=en&ei=QHutS_b9Ko3y0gS8_bSKDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=CAESAR%20IMP.%20S.%20D.%20CICERONI%20IMP.&f=false
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby Kynetus Valesius » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:17 am

Christoph Cellarius, Caesaris Commentarii De Bello Gallico et Civili (Lipsiae, 1746), p.716, wrote:
C. IVLII CAESARIS FRAGMENTA EX LIBRIS EPISTOLARUM AD M.T. CICERONEM

CAESAR IMP. S. D. CICERONI IMP.

Quum Furnium nostrum tantum vidissem, neque loqui, neque audire commode potuisset. quum properarem, atque essem in itinere, praemissis iam legionibus: praeterire tamen non potui, quin & scriberam ad te & illum mitterem, gratiasque agerem. etsi hoc officium & feci saepe, & saepius mihi facturus videor: ita & de me mereris, in primis a te peto, quoniam confido me celeriter ad urbem venturum, ut te ibi videam; ut tuo consilio, gratia, dignitate, ope omnium rerum uti possim. Ad propositum revertar: festinationi meae gravitatique litterarm ignosces, reliqua ex Furnio cognosces. Vale.

Ex Cic. lib. IX. ad Attic. cp. VI.

"Although I had seen our Furnius a lot, I hadn't been able to comfortably listen or talk, as I was in a hurry and on the march, with the legions already sent ahead: however I couldn't neglect to write to you and send him and thank you. Even if this visit is one I have often made, & one I see myself making more often in the future, and so you deserve it from me, above all I ask of you, since I expect that I will be arriving soon near the city, that I would see you there, so that I might be able to avail of your advice, goodwill, grace and influence in all things. I must return to the matter in hand: please forgive my haste and the heavy handwriting. You'll learn the rest from Furnius. Bye.


Addrianus, I spent quite a bit of time responding to this post yesterday, all of my response being in latin with English translation. But when it came time to post the response, I don't know how, I lost everything I had done. Anyway, I hope you will overlook this response entirely in English - I'm just too tired to duplicate last night's effort.

Although I hold you to be far better translator than I am, still I question parts of your rendering of the passage. Yet, though I question I don't necessarily think my rendering is better. Be that as it may,

Quum Furnium nostrum tantum vidissem, neque loqui, neque audire commode potuisset. quum properarem, atque essem in itinere, praemissis iam legionibus: praeterire tamen non potui, quin & scriberam ad te & illum mitterem, gratiasque agerem.


Although I had ONLY seen our mutual friend and he couldn't really converse as I was in a hurry and on the march, with the legions already sent ahead, I felt compelled to write to you and send him and thank you.

I guess the only substantial difference in meaning stems from the meaning of TANTUM. But I am really perplexed by your rendering of the following sentence. How do you get "visit" out of officium? By officium I thought Cicero meant the rendering of thanks just mentioned, as in

etsi hoc officium & feci saepe, & saepius mihi facturus videor: ita & de me mereris, in primis a te peto, quoniam confido me celeriter ad urbem venturum, ut te ibi videam; ut tuo consilio, gratia, dignitate, ope omnium rerum uti possim.


Even if I have performed this office [of saying thank you] often and expect to so even more often in the future ( and you really deserve such from me ), I especially request of you, since I am sure I will arrive in the city quickly, that I may see you there so that I may take advantage of your good judgment, influence, position and assistance with everything.

It was pretty acute of you to have discerned that "gravitati litterarum" meant "sloppy handwriting". That I surely would have mangled.

On a completely unrelated matter, Adrianus, I want you to know that although I disagree strongly with you about the merits of you know whose work, I very much admire your constant willingness to help others on this site.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby adrianus » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:40 pm

Kynetus Valesius wrote:(1)...But when it came time to post the response, I don't know how, I lost everything I had done.
(2)...Although I had ONLY seen our mutual friend and he couldn't really converse as I was in a hurry and on the march, with the legions already sent ahead, I felt compelled to write to you and send him and thank you.
(3)...Even if I have performed this office [of saying thank you] often and expect to so even more often in the future ( and you really deserve such from me ), I especially request of you, since I am sure I will arrive in the city quickly, that I may see you there so that I may take advantage of your good judgment, influence, position and assistance with everything.
(4)...willingness to help others on this site.

Salve Kynete Valesi
(1) I always compose first outside TextKit and, if editing within TextKit, select and copy my post in TextKit before hitting the "Submit" button to avoid possible losses due to timeouts (or for whatever reason).
(2) That's a lot better, indeed. Great.
(3) The "etsi" is confusing. The other version in Latin leaves out the word "officium" and is punctuated to refer back in the passage so, when I saw it the new version, I thought to adjust along your lines. But "officium" means also, according to OED,
"2. An act of respect to a person, a courtesy or civility; especially a ceremonial visit (as of a client to his patron)...5b (without qualification sg. or pl.) official engagements, business."

Depending on whose punctuation you go with, either reading might work, no?
(4) Thanks, Kynetus, but it's not mere altruism. And others here know more than I. The process of trying to write also in Latin benefits me hugely. And attempting answers has the excitement of gambling, in my case.

(1) Semper extra TextKit programma scribo et semper, quàm deferendi globulum deprimo, omnia intra eum correcta ante diligo et servo, ad evitandum jacturarum inopiâ temporis (vel aliter) inlatarum.
(2) Optimum quod scripsisti, Kynete. Macte.
(3) Confundit "etsi" conjunctio. Alia versio latinè "officium" nomen omittit et clariùs interpunctiones ad illa quae in loco praecedunt referunt. Quod visum me sic corrigere ferè fecit. Secundum autem OED, "officium" adventum formalem seu solemnem benè significat ut adventum clientis patrono. Nonnè bona alterutra interpretatio de interpunctione pendens?
(4) Gratias, Kynete, tibi ago. Alii hîc me sunt sapientiores. Minùs autem mihi officium benefactoris, magìs commodum mercatoris, quià omnimodò disco qui semper et latinè scribere coner. Etiam ego equidem sicut aleator responsa periculosè dare delecto.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby thesaurus » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:06 am

"Although I had seen our Furnius a lot, I hadn't been able to comfortably listen or talk
Quum Furnium nostrum tantum vidissem, neque loqui, neque audire commode potuisset


Priusquam Kynetus recte, mea sententia, hanc sententiam vertit, sed dubium etiam nunc habeo. Cur "I hadn't been able" scripsisti, care Adriane? Nonne terminus verbi "potuisset" Furnium subjectivum esse significat? Ignoscas procacitatem meam oro.

I think Kynetus noted this already, when he translated the sentence, but I'm still unsure. Why did you write "I hadn't been able," when potuisset seems to indicate Furnius, dear Adrianus? Forgive my incivility.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby adrianus » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:52 am

thesaurus wrote:Why did you write "I hadn't been able," when potuisset seems to indicate Furnius, dear Adrianus?

I had read the verb impersonally "it hadn't been possible to either talk or listen conveniently/comfortably" and, in view of what followed, thought it OK in English to put "I". Maybe that was bad. I hadn't expected that he (the writer, Caesar) would switch subject to Furnius.
Impersonale verbum legeram et, sequentibus provisis, personam primam anglicè substitui licere imaginatus sum. Fortassè malè feci. Scriptorem (Caesarem) pro subjecto Furnium substituere non praesumseram.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby Scribo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:45 pm

Haha this one of the several pieces my examination with be on.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby adrianus » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:54 pm

Good luck! // Bonam fortunam!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Caesar Ciceroni

Postby Scribo » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:27 pm

Thank you, I'll post my translation later too maybe.
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