Textkit Logo

Pliny

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Pliny

Postby Einhard » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:54 pm

Salvete omnes,

Just another line from Pliny that I'd welcome your suggestions on:

...adeo solutus metu ut omnes illius mali motus, omnes figuras, ut deprenderat oculis, dictaret enotaretque 6.16

...so freed from fear that all the movements of that terrible event, all the phases, he observed with his eyes, dictated and noted.

I have the general gist of what's written, but I don't understand why "ut" is used twice, and that's affecting my translation. Were it not for the second "ut" I'd translate as a simple result clause, but its presence has thrown me somewhat. I'm thinking perhaps that its there purely for emphasis. Any ideas?

Thanks...
User avatar
Einhard
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:05 pm
Location: Hibernia

Re: Pliny

Postby Tertius Robertus » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:12 pm

adeo solutus metu ut omnes illius mali motus, omnes figuras, ut deprenderat oculis, dictaret enotaretque


being so free from fear, that, as soon as he saw all the movements, all the figures of that evil, he dictated and annotated (them).

The ut here has a sense of time: as soon as, just after, and stuff.
Tertius Robertus
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Pliny

Postby adrianus » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:06 pm

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pliny.ep6.html liber sextus, capitulum sedecim, linea decim wrote:Properat illuc unde alii fugiunt, rectumque cursum recta gubernacula in periculum tenet adeo solutus metu, ut omnes illius mali motus omnes figuras ut deprenderat oculis dictaret enotaretque.

He hurried to the place from which others were fleeing and, so fearless he was, by managing the helm, held a direct course into the danger, in order to record and recount all the disturbances of that disaster, all the images, when he [had] caught sight of them.*

Present is historic so secondary (past) tense is implied (I think) so the sequence of tenses takes imperfect for incomplete action and pluperfect for completed action.

Historicum praesens est tempus ergo praeteritum denotatur (ut credo), quod tempus secondarium ob actionem infectam in ordine temporum imperfectum requirit, et plusquàmperfectum ob actionem perfectam.

Addendum
*Tertius Robertus is right about this temporal use of "ut". I keep missing this.
Rectè dicit Tertius Robertus de usu "ut" conjunctionis temporale. Tam frequenter hanc rem praetereo.
Last edited by adrianus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Pliny

Postby rkday » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:09 pm

adrianus wrote:
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pliny.ep6.html liber sextus, capitulum sedecim, linea decim wrote:Properat illuc unde alii fugiunt, rectumque cursum recta gubernacula in periculum tenet adeo solutus metu, ut omnes illius mali motus omnes figuras ut deprenderat oculis dictaret enotaretque. ()

He hurried to the place from which others were fleeing and, so fearless he was, by managing the helm, held a direct course into the danger, so [with the result] that he observed and recounted all the disturbances of that disaster, all the images, that he had taken in with his eyes.


Your translation reads to me as a relative clause (i.e. equivalent to "which he had taken in with his eyes") and, although I'm not Latinate enough to swear that "ut" is never used like that, I don't think it's common. I think some kind of temporal idea ("when he had taken them in with his eyes"), with a subjunctive by attraction, is a sensible way to read it.
rkday
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: Pliny

Postby adrianus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:46 am

rkday wrote:Your translation reads to me as a relative clause (i.e. equivalent to "which he had taken in with his eyes") and, although I'm not Latinate enough to swear that "ut" is never used like that, I don't think it's common. I think some kind of temporal idea ("when he had taken them in with his eyes"), with a subjunctive by attraction, is a sensible way to read it.

You're right. I keep making this mistake. = "Indefinite relative (in the sense of whenever)" say A&G §542
Rectè dicis. Perpetuò idem peccatum committo. Secundum A&G, est indefinita clausula relativa.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Pliny

Postby Kynetus Valesius » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 am

Properat illuc unde alii fugiunt, rectumque cursum recta gubernacula in periculum tenet adeo solutus metu, ut omnes illius mali motus omnes figuras ut deprenderat oculis dictaret enotaretque. ()

how about

he hastened thither whence others fled and so fearlessly did he hold the course directly into the danger that he was able to record and describe in their entirety the disturbing events of the tragedy as he had witnessed them.
phpbb
Kynetus Valesius
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:34 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Pliny

Postby adrianus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:53 pm

Ah, you can never have enough of "thither" and "whence". Nice! You went with clause of result rather than clause of purpose. I thought about that at first. I thought perfect subjunctive was used in the sequence of tenses for that after a secondary and I was taking present historical as secondary. But, since the present historical could be considered primary or secondary, maybe you could have it that way. I'm not sure.

Nil melius quàm anglicè "thither" et "whence". Bellum! Nonnè aptius clausulae eventûs est perfectum tempus praeteritum modo subjunctivo quod secondarium tempus sequitur prae ordine temporum? Id quod scribis, fateor, quoàd tempora priùs credi. Reverâ autem et primarium et secondarium tempus haberi potest praesens historicum. Forsàn alterutra interpretatio sit valida. Incertus sum.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Pliny

Postby Kynetus Valesius » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:23 am

Adrianus noster scripsit

You went with clause of result rather than clause of purpose.

attamen minime mihi certum est me non prave reddidisse hanc plinii sententiam in linguam anglicam. proxima nocte diu rem in animo volvi. ominibus angulis problematis consideratis tandem decrevi te adriane accuratius sensum verbi "ut" hoc in contexto divinavisse; opus esse verbum "ut" hic esse particulum sermonis adhibitum ad introducenda circumstantia denotandi eventus. nonne nisi fallor hoc in casu "ut" nominatur conjunctio temporalis? Itaque me opportuit verbo "while" uti aliqquove simili.

however it is by no means certain to me that i did not render this sentence by pliny inaccurately. last night I turned the matter over in my mind for some time. After considering the problem from various angles I concluded at length that you Adrianus had more accurrately hit upon the meaning of the word "ut" in this context: the word "ut" is here used as a particle to introduce the circumstances surrounding the recording of the events. Therefore I ought to have used the word "while" or something similiar.

vale et valete
ego cynetus haec scripsi
phpbb
Kynetus Valesius
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:34 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Pliny

Postby Imber Ranae » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:09 am

I agree that the first ut introduces a result clause (triggered by adeo), and that the imperfect subjunctive is correct since the main clause is historical present. The use of the pluperfect deprenderat together with the imperfect dictaret and enotaret suggests that this is an iterative indefinite: "...whenever/as soon as he [had] caught sight of them, he would..."
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
Imber Ranae
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:06 am


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Barry Hofstetter, Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot], Godmy, Google Adsense [Bot], Lord_WayneY and 56 guests