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Cicero

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Cicero

Postby Einhard » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:18 pm

Salvete all,

Have just finished translating the two excerpts from Cicero's In Catilinam Oratio in the Loci Immutati of Wheelock and, although it took far longer than I had expected, I'm feeling rather pleased with myself. Of course, I had problems with a few lines and I'd appreciate as always if someone wouldn't mind clearing them up for me.

Immo vero etiam in senatum venit, fit publici consili particeps,

aye, he comes even into the Senate, a participant... I know it's meant to be along the lines of taking part in public deliberations, but can't see how fit, er, fits.

Nam tum cum ex urbe Catilinam eiciebam (non enim iam vereor huius verbi invdiam, cum illa magis sit timenda, quod vivus exierit)- sed tum cum illum exterminari volebam, aut reliquam coniuratorum manum simul exituram aut eos qui restitisent infirmos sine illo ac debiles fore putabam.

For when, thereupon, I threw Catilina out of the city (for I do not now respect/fear the ill-will of this word, although that ought to be feared more, because he went out alive)- but when then I wished that he was banished, I thought that either the remaining band of conspirators would leave together or that those infirm and helpless men who stayed behind would be without him.

That's it really. Thanks...
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Re: Cicero

Postby Damoetas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:19 am

Immo vero etiam in senatum venit, fit publici consili particeps,

aye, he comes even into the Senate, a participant... I know it's meant to be along the lines of taking part in public deliberations, but can't see how fit, er, fits.


Think of it as, "he becomes a participant in public deliberations," if that helps. But "he takes part in public deliberations" is more how we would say it in English. By the way, you didn't ask specifically about Immo vero, which you translated as "aye." Since no one says "aye" in English anymore, it's worth thinking a little more carefully about what that really means. Just before this, Cicero has said, senatus haec intellegit, consul videt; hic tamen vivit. vivit? immo vero etiam in senatum venit.... In English, the force of this is: "The senate understands this; the consul sees it. And yet he is still alive. Is he alive? Yes, and he even comes into the senate ...."

tum cum together mean "then when," or "at that time when." (This is a case when a cum clause is purely temporal, and so takes the indicative.)

eiciebam is imperfect, "was throwing out." Dyck's Cambridge commentary suggests that it's conative: "was trying to throw him out."

non + iam = "no longer."

huius verbi invidiam, more specifically the "odium or stigma attached to the word" (i.e. the word eicio).

the illa that should be timenda is the invidia of the fact that he left alive.

In the last part, you have a few things turned around. It should be, "I thought that ... those who stayed would be weak and helpless without him." Think carefully about the order of words in Latin, and it will clue you in to what goes with what. People sometimes say, "Word order doesn't matter in Latin, you can just ignore it." That is totally bogus.... (I mean, I know what they're trying to say, but they should be much more careful how they phrase it.) In this case, your indirect statement is:

{eos qui restitissent} {infirmos sine illo ac debiles} fore putabam.

Where the first bracketed part is the subject of the accusative-infinitive construction, and the second part is the predicate.
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Re: Cicero

Postby adrianus » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:22 am

Damoetas wrote:Since no one says "aye" in English anymore...

We Celts do in English! Dicamus anglicè nos Celtae!

Addendum
In fact, quite a few English people still use it in their dialects everyday and it still used quite generally in toting up votes.
Verum dicere, sunt complures nostrorum temporum anglici qui cotidiè hoc vocabulo utuntur, non rarò is diribitor voti.
Last edited by adrianus on Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Cicero

Postby adrianus » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:28 pm

I would translate into English in this way // Sic verto in sermones anglicos:

For while I was driving Catilina out of the city (no longer indeed do I fear criticism for saying this, since criticism ought more to be feared that he got out alive),—or while I was wishing that he be driven out,—I was reckoning that either the remaining band of conspirators would be driven out at the same time or that those who would have remained would be weak and powerless without him.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Cicero

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:49 pm

If I may add my own question, what exactly is the force of "sed" here, after the parenthetical comment? It seems to just be going to back to before this comment (it seems like "ex urbe Catilinam eiciebam" and "illum exterminari volebam" refer to the same thing), so is it like "but anyway"? Or is it something else?
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Re: Cicero

Postby Damoetas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:00 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:If I may add my own question, what exactly is the force of "sed" here, after the parenthetical comment? It seems to just be going to back to before this comment (it seems like "ex urbe Catilinam eiciebam" and "illum exterminari volebam" refer to the same thing), so is it like "but anyway"? Or is it something else?


Dyck's commentary says the following:

sed ... cum "when, I say"; for sed used to resume after a digression cf. OLD s.v. 2b.
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Re: Cicero

Postby Damoetas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:07 pm

adrianus wrote:We Celts do in English! Dicamus anglicè nos Celtae!

Addendum
In fact, quite a few English people still use it in their dialects everyday and it still used quite generally in toting up votes.
Verum dicere, sunt complures nostrorum temporum anglici qui cotidiè hoc vocabulo utuntur, non rarò is diribitor voti.


That's interesting! So I misspoke by saying "no one" :) What I should have said was, it's not part of the ordinary vocabulary of college students in the US who are studying Latin (and that's the main realm of my Latin-related experience). When they use something like that in a translation, it's usually because they're just plugging it in from a dictionary without stopping to think what the real force of it is. That's what I always encourage people not to do; because the dictionary thereby becomes a hindrance to understanding, rather than a help. But yes, interesting, I didn't realize it was so widespread in England....
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Re: Cicero

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:27 pm

Damoetas wrote:Dyck's commentary says the following:

sed ... cum "when, I say"; for sed used to resume after a digression cf. OLD s.v. 2b.

Thanks. And in fact after a second look at L&S, it's there too, and even says "hence, after parenthetic clauses" (although they of course do not have my "but anyway" gloss). Anyway, I am extremely bad at skimming through solid blocks of text on a computer screen.
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Re: Cicero

Postby adrianus » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:14 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:If I may add my own question, what exactly is the force of "sed" here, after the parenthetical comment? It seems to just be going to back to before this comment (it seems like "ex urbe Catilinam eiciebam" and "illum exterminari volebam" refer to the same thing), so is it like "but anyway"? Or is it something else?

I translated in this way // Sic verti:
For while I was driving Catilina out of the city...,—or while I was wishing that he be driven out

Me hoc dixisse oportet: hîc "immò" pro "sed" intellegendum est, quod anglicè "or" cum "wishing" verbo emphasin habente significare potest (quâre cursivâ italicâ usus sum).
Instead of "or", I might have said more clearly "on the contrary" or "more correctly", which "or" plus an emphasized "wishing" does mean (which is why I used the italics).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Cicero

Postby Einhard » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:05 pm

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. They certainly cleared things up for me, especially with regards to the second sentence.

Damoetas wrote:
When they use something like that in a translation, it's usually because they're just plugging it in from a dictionary without stopping to think what the real force of it is. That's what I always encourage people not to do; because the dictionary thereby becomes a hindrance to understanding, rather than a help. But yes, interesting, I didn't realize it was so widespread in England....


Well, you're correct in one sense- it was plugged by the dictionary, or at least in Wheelock's gloss to the text, but I went with it because, coming from Ireland, I use "aye" on a daily basis!
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Re: Cicero

Postby Nooj » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:08 am

Damoetas wrote:What I should have said was, it's not part of the ordinary vocabulary of college students in the US who are studying Latin (and that's the main realm of my Latin-related experience).

Groundskeeper Willy says aye all the time. :)
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Re: Cicero

Postby Interaxus » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:11 pm

Meanwhile the rural ditties were not mute,
Tempered to th' oaten flute;
Rough Satyrs danced, and Fauns with cloven heel
From the glad sound would not be absent long;
And old Damoetas loved to hear our song.

Possibly old Damoetas himself said 'aye' (Milton's, not Vergil's). :)

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