Thoughts on Google Books

[metrodorus]

"Today, every laptop with an internet connection contains more information than the Great Library of Alexandria. At its peak, that library contained 700,000 books, until the Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered it burned down the late fourth century; today, Google Books has over seven million – and that's before you count everything else online. In 1941, Jorge Luis Borges wrote a short story imagining a "total library" containing all written information. Seventy years later, it exists." Johann Hari, The Guardian, 8 December 2009.
The implications of google books, and the availability of the vast universe of literature written in Latin, previously hidden - even, in many instances, to specialists, should be sending a shudder through our world.
For once, we have an honest answer to give, an answer we can shout from the rooftops - to the perennial question, "Of what use is Latin". The answer lies behind your search box on google books. Type in 'haec est" and a torrent of literature will pour forth to assault you. The cultural production of two thousand years, written in Latin, unread, unknown, there for the picking and reading.
As one blogger online remarked recently, "we starve amidst a banquet". Never before in history, has anyone had access to the breadth and depth of Latin literature, that we have access to now, at the click of a mouse.
We see some signs of adjustment - "Latin for the New Millenium" - but old habits and old ideas persist. Old methods of teaching, that will not equip our students to delve into this world, persist.
Some claim they are only interested in reading 'Classical Latin', but then, they cut themselves off from the 2000 years of literary criticism and commenting on Latin texts, written in Latin. The vast bulk of scholarship on Latin original texts, is only available in Latin. Most of this material is terra incognita, and professors of Latin have not yet adjusted to the paradigm shift that must necessarily take place.
For a Classicist to ignore works written in Neo-Latin that discuss the poetics of Virgil, for instance, while happily reading modern crit in Italian of German, is surpassing strange. Yet, that is our reality - as many of these critical texts are unknown, and have sat on bookshelves, in vast repositories, unopened for centuries. Even their titles are often unrecorded in the literature, let alone discussion of their contents.
Now, more than ever, Latin teachers need to focus on fluency and an ability to read with fluidity - to give our students the tools to enter this sacrum sacrorum loaded with the wisdom of millenia. They need to show their students this vast depository, to demonstrate the usefulness of having a skill in reading this language.
If we do not transmit our wonder and amazement at this turn of events - then we will have failed to grasp an opportunity that no generation has ever had before.
The momentousness of this change is such, that it can be compared to the shift that took place in the world of letters after the invention of printing - leading to the wide dissemination of Classical texts, and to a burst of improved standards of Latin literacy. Once the preserve of a few monks in cloisters, anyone could now own Cicero, Vergil, and use these texts to improve their Latin. The result, the Neo-Latin Renaissance, that really only took off after the invention of printing.
Now, we face another paradigm shift - for us, as readers of Latin, we were more akin to the monks, with access to only a few valued tomes - the vast production of the renaissance was unavailable to us, even to the specialist - now, the floodgates have opened.
How will we respond?
Evan Millner

[adrianus]

The water pot is left at the doorstep. I say, beware false prophets and keep your trousers on.
Hydria in limine apponitur. Attendite à falsis prophetis et nolite detrahere bracas, aio.

[Kyneto Valesio]

The water pot is left at the doorstep. I say, beware false prophets and keep your trousers on.
Hydria in limine apponitur. Attendite à falsis prophetis et nolite detrahere bracas, aio.

Not certain about the thrust of your comment, Adriane. Could you elaborate? In general I thought metrodorus' observations were spot on. For some time I have harbored similar ideas: the libraries of Europe - which in general seems so self-satisfied about its cultural heritage - are filled with mouldering tomes that virtually nobody has access to for lack of an education. I am reminded of a brief trip to Malta whose Cathedral floor is covered with inscribed marble slabs commenting on the lives of the warrior monks buried beneath. This library in stone merits hardly a glance from the hurried hoards - at least that was my observation.

As for the need for a new approach to teaching latin, I couldn't agree more. Teachers who can't speak latin or read the neo-latin texts should be removed from their posts. It is the very teachers of latin, who have killed it by their very narrow approach. Neo-latin texts constitute a vast cultural patrimony waiting to be discovered. Consider the renaissance comedy Pedantius. This work satirizes the adademic neo-latin culture that we are lamenting the loss of and does so brilliantly and hilariously - at least according to me. Yet I have no way of checking my judgment since not much is available about it. I've read some Plautus and Pedantius and deem the later to be far funnier. Yet works like this might as well not exist.

Gotta go! As I have a date with a moving truck. Will return soon. Thanks to Evan Der Millner for all his great work.

[adrianus]

You like Pedantius, Kyneto. You should interpret my comments as a send-up of current affectations in learning.
Comoedia Pedanti, Kyneto, tibi placet. Verba mea ut satura contra eruditionem nostrorum dierum speciosam interpretanda sunt.

Another saying, Kyneto: Who cannot check his judgment must proceed cautiously, in case he's run over by a moving truck. I wish you a happy move.
Alium dictum, Kyneto: Cuius sententiam approbare non potest, is eam coercere debet ne autocarro supellectilis superetur. Felicem transitionem tibi opto.

[Lex]

I don't know that the existence of Google books is an answer to the question "Of what use is Latin?" Just because certain books exist and are easily accessible, that doesn't mean that the average person should necessarily care to read them. I'm afraid the study of Latin will continue to be of interest mainly to antiquarians and snobs, Internet or no.

As for teaching neo-Latin, I don't see any problem with that, as long as it is not done too early. Exposing a student to too many dialects too early in his development could easily confuse and discourage him. I think the early years should stick to that which was considered model Latin by later Romans and Europeans. Only after the student has a sound basis in "correct" Latin should he be taught dialectal variants.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm not exactly a Latin expert, so take it for what it's worth.

[Kyneto Valesio]

still not sure about adrianus' point of view re metrodorus' comments.

there is no doubt that internet or no latin will primarily be of interest to snobs, antiquarians, nerds, whatever. nethertheless the existence of google books and similar troves makes it abundantly clear that the bulk of latin literature was written after the golden/silver age. Consider the scholars"and experts in renaissance studies and adjacent eras: do we presume that it the norm that they are able to read, write and converse in neo-latin as well or nearly as well as queen elizabeth, milton, copernicus, luther, etc etc etc. those who can't are actually frauds imho.

as for what the dominant dialect should be in the schools, currently no dialect is taught in that students are not taught to speak latin. insofar as it might be necessary to choose a "dialect" (which is not at all clear to me) i would opt for "neo latin". were neo-latin students in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries more bewildered by the ancient texts because they were first taught using corderius, erasamus, or some similar neo-latin method?

It is speculated that students taught to speak latin .....will find ancient texts more transparent.

i've been away for a while. i moved across country. I moved my mom across country. I have been caring for her. All of this has been quite a struggle but at last i once again have some time to continue my studies. to help me get up to speed i am reviewing allen and greenough's new latin grammar. in addition I am making use of metrodorus' recordings of corderius.

are there any other fans of pedantius out there?

[Lex]

insofar as it might be necessary to choose a "dialect" (which is not at all clear to me) i would opt for "neo latin".

I think it is necessary to choose a "dialect" by definition. Any form of Latin is a dialect, just as any form of English is a dialect. I would opt for "classical" Latin, because later Latin speakers and writers considered it a model of proper form. I am a big believer in the idea that one must first learn "the rules", and only then learn when and how to break "the rules". I read a history recently that said that grammarians in the later Roman empire based all their early teaching on only four writers; Vergil, Cicero, Sallust and Terence. Only after years of studying these authors was one considered to be prepared for more advanced study.

were neo-latin students in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries more bewildered by the ancient texts because they were first taught using corderius, erasamus, or some similar neo-latin method?

I would guess that would have been less bewildered if they were first taught classical Latin, yes.

[Kyneto Valesio]

just as any form of English is a dialect.

and you probably do pretty well negotiating a variety of dialects from rap to elizabethan - we all learn to handle a variety of english dialects - informal youth dialect, talking head analyst dialect, cockney dialect, southern etc. do you get confused? when we learn spanish don't we first learn modern spanish and then on that basis later read cervantes if so inclined. or should cervantes be taught first? it is not actually necessary to choose according to me. neo-latin proposed a return to classical norms didn't it - but with expanded vocabulary!

[Lex]

and you probably do pretty well negotiating a variety of dialects from rap to elizabethan - we all learn to handle a variety of english dialects - informal youth dialect, talking head analyst dialect, cockney dialect, southern etc. do you get confused?

Yes. I can't understand half of what rappers say, couldn't begin to appreciate Shakespeare or Spenser without the archaic words and forms being glossed, and some of the British dialects that Benny Hill aped might as well have been foreign languages.

when we learn spanish don't we first learn modern spanish and then on that basis later read cervantes if so inclined. or should cervantes be taught first?

Well, modern Spanish is a living language, so of course people tend to learn it first! Latin, however, is not a living language, despite the desire of some that it be revived. As a language of mainly antiquarian interest, it doesn't much matter if one starts learning with an antiquated dialect. As for Cervantes, I'm not sure I'm right, but it's my understanding that literary Spanish is a fairly conservative dialect, so Cervantes wouldn't pose too much trouble to an educated reader of Spanish.

it is not actually necessary to choose according to me. neo-latin proposed a return to classical norms didn't it - but with expanded vocabulary!

Again, I'm not 100% sure, but my understanding is that, while neo-Latin certainly had an expanded vocabulary, it often did not follow classical models with respect to grammar or style. So I think it is necessary to choose. Even if I'm wrong, the expanded vocabulary of neo-Latin could be too much to eat at one sitting. Why not base the beginner's study on the core classical vocabulary?

Now, if a student intends only to focus on a certain very circumscribed set of texts, the works of Euler and Gauss, say, then I would see no point in starting with classical Latin. But if he is interested in learning all of Latin, that's different.

[Kyneto Valesio]

Lex, some good points.

On the question of neo-latin vs. classical latin, we can let that issue die: you see a need to choose whereas I don't. It is not a question of great import. But how languages are taught is very important. The so-called "translation only" method is a sure fire method for turning the learning of latin into an arduous and frustrating of tasks for all but the most analytical and nerdy. Erasmus - as I (no expert) understand it - proposed restoring classical grammar while teaching the students to speak using set dialogues and is said to have been the father of MODERN language instruction. If that method worked so well for latinists of his era, why not for our era?

I am even more interested though in Adrianus' comment about false prophets. What did he mean?

[adrianus]

Erasmus's The Praise of Folly. Moriae Encomium seu Laus Stultitiae Desiderii Erasmi.
We always have the poor and the con-men in our midst.
Semper pauperes et circumscriptores habemus nobiscum.

[edonnelly]

Kyneto, good to see you posting here again. It has been a while. Welcome back.

[thesaurus]

Ave etiam Kyneto! Your comments on Pedantius make me want to read it. I'll give it a shot.

As for GoogleBooks, I think it's amazing to have access to all the untapped resources, but I doubt it will do anything to revolutionize Latin studies. I don't think the problem has been a lack of resources, but a lack of skills and interest (the former tending to follow the latter); lack of interest in learning Latin is a much larger issue that I don't see changing in the future. Even having reached a point where I can read Latin more comfortably than ever before, I've never needed more resources; there are enough canonical pieces to occupy all my time. With that said, I do enjoy reading bits and pieces of neo-latin literature on Googlebooks whenever I stumble across them. However, as someone said, I'm not too sure that even most Latinists are going to be very interested in reading obscure and dated neo-latin texts, for example, in the realm of science and philosophy. Personally, I have almost no interest in reading centuries of pedantic commentaries and scolia. However, neo-Latin literature probably has a better chance of staying fresh and bearing rereading.

It'd be nice if all the Latin teachers were fluent in Latin, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. As it stands now, if we were to fire all the middling ones, there wouldn't be many left. I think a fundamental paedegogical shift needs to take place at the level of teacher education so as to improve the situation in the future.

I'm going to try my hand as a occasional volunteer tutor/teacher in Latin and English at the local high school this semester. Having not taking Latin in high school, nor ever taught it (except on Textkit!), I'm interested to see what the students are capable of. Maybe I can slyly advocate a more active approach to the language.

[metrodorus]

Kyneto,
Really good to see you back here. I hope all goes well for you.
Metro.

[Interaxus]

Adrianus and Metrodorus, you both seem to me to be driven learner-teachers.

Adrianus, kudos for converting everything you write into Latin. That’s a fantastic standard you set for the rest of us. (Metrodorus didn’t even translate his Cicero quote to English – had to google my way to that – admittedly a learning experience). By the way, what happened to that Latin encyclopedia game project?

Metrodorus, even though recorded textbooks may not be the ultimate answer to mastering oral Latin, your Latinum site has undoubtedly given Latin learning a big boost – kudos for pedagogical zeal and Internet showmanship. I bought your D’Ooge CD to listen to your recording of the story at the end of the book and I think your pronunciation has indeed improved. I had problems earlier with your Latin ‘de’ pronounced as French ‘de’ (that was in Ora Maritima; perhaps the new release is different?), not to mention English áblative pronounced as ablátive, and I still think nasalized m is an unnecessary hurdle for learners struggling to speak Latin at all. But what a boon your recording would have been to all those Textkittens working through Latin for Beginners in Textkit’s heyday! (One question: shouldn’t ‘totáque’ be ‘tótaque’ - since o is long and a is short?).

Adrianus, I too felt Metrodorus was out of line a couple of years ago when he introduced gay porn pictures into a forum aimed at adults, kids and families. I don’t think my (admittedly straight European) reaction was particularly anti-gay; close-ups of female genitalia would have been equally inappropriate in that context.

Metrodorus, so you’re unrepentant. Oh well. What was that Voltaire said about other people’s religions?

Thesaurus, I share your interpretation of reality. Latin’s history. However, history’s alive. So Latin ain’t quite dead. At least not for historians and romantics. What materials are you going to use in your class? Have you seen Traupman’s coursebooks, ‘Latin Is Fun’, 1 & 2?

kyneto. welcome back. are roman capitals dead?

Final reflection. Don’t shoot the pianist. http://januarymagazine.com/2009/10/plea ... anist.html Don’t blame the teachers; they’re doing their best. They have been doing their best for the last 400 years to come up with inspired ideas to bring Latin back to life.

What I say is: ‘spem longam reseces’ (Google).

Int

[Kyneto Valesio]

thanks to several of you for the "welcome backs". as for capitals - this is the internet and no rules apply as everything is informal.

i second the remarks about Metrodorus' (Evan "der" Millner's) internet showmanship. you gotta admire the guy's indefatigable energies. and i would like to suggest some new projects for him. Currently I am using his Corderius recordings - the ones in english and latin. These are particularly useful since what I need is a quick review of forms, structures and some basics words. My suggestion is that he do more in the anglice-latine sentence by sentence format. Here are some possibilities.

1. Alice in Wonderland - I think the texts for both versions are available on the net
2. Include more classical stuff. Sallust is available here in a dual column format
tp://www.slu.edu/colleges/AS/languages/class ... rans1.html
Seneca too would be great

[metrodorus]

Kyneto,

I am going to outline what I want to do - I have a long programme. I've been thinking along the lines you propose.

I am thinking of using the Universitas Scholarium site on ning as the primary site to list all the Latin sub-courses and texts in audio that are starting to appear - although the Latinum brand is growing in recognition, so maybe I should stick to that...I'm not sure - Universitas Scholarium explains what I am trying to accomplish more clearly.......I want to start to distribute the audio in more places, so increase the liklihood of it surviving long term:

If you want to produce an audio course of a text, (either a Classical text, or a grammar textbook, or some other text) I will talk you through the methodology I use - which you can take as is, or adapt freely. You can either set it up on your own podcast, which will then be linked to the Universitas Scholarium and Latinum main page, or you can send me a CD and I can upload it to Latinum. Whatever you wish.

The only rider I have for Latinum is that the texts be marked by the reader for quantity, and read with more or less correct quantity, and that a version of restored classical be used.

I have a whole slew of beginners texts I still want to work on - this will progress quickly, as the texts I have lined up are already marked for quantity, so not much checking needed. Orbis Pictus took a long time to process, as it had to be marked up laboriously, being full of words I had to double check. The new glossa dictionary online speeded up the process tremendously.

I need to widen the range of texts - ultimately, I want to have a whole university curriculum online - in Latin - covering introductory courses in various subjects -obviously, using older textbooks, so it will be more a 'History of Thought' education - although much of the mathematical literature in Latin is still current. My thought process is that, as we create an audience, they will want to read - and listen to - a wider range of materials.

I intend to soon start work on Caesar. I agree, the Latin-English-Latin format works well - and it also means the listener does not need to resort to using a dictionary. They can check if their original comprehension was OK, and if not, can work out during the second reading where they went wrong. For absolute beginners, it is like having learner wheels on a bike, and means entry can be made into more complex territory, sooner. I also think a Latin only version is important.

Interestingly, this bilingual method was promoted by Comenius, and also, influenced by Comenius, promoted aggressively by the philosopher John Locke. Several editions of texts were produced, after the 'model of Mr Locke'. These are very useful.

As for my name, my original family name is der Millner. The der was dropped by the English branch around WWI, for political reasons. I still use it as a literary name, as it has a very long history, and I quite like it. I started out here as Metrodorus, (a student of Epicurus, my favourite philosopher)....then decided to Latinise my surname, hence Molendinarius....and then there is my English name too boot, which itself is an Anglicization of the Russian name Vanya...all a bit complex, no?

[cantator]

Re: Google books - I have no problem with Google's activities, particularly with regards to the re-publication of books long out of print. Considering the exclusive and pig-headed policies of groups like Jstor I'm happy to see Google help the scholar independent from universities and other academies.

[adrianus]

By the way, what happened to that Latin encyclopedia game project?

It works in Director but I want to port from Director to Unity3D. My talking heads are rigged (that was fun) and operate nicely in Unity3D but I'm stuck. I haven't got C++, so I can't write the plugins to get my language databases "talking" to the computer speech-engines in the new environment. A group in Taiwan expressed an interest in helping but it hasn't come to anything so far. Pie in the sky!

In programmate Director enim fungitor quod feci, at in alium Unity3D nomine traducere volo. Capita mihi loquendi capacia funibus armata sunt (id facere valdè placit) et benè intra Unity3D conversantur, sed aggredi non possum. Per C++ linguam, programmare nequeo subprogrammata externa quae ad instrumenta loquendi ordinatralia collectionesque datorum linguisticas inter se in Unity3D commeandas adjuvant. Grex Taivaniae hôc teneri se dixerunt at iam exspecto. Mortuus artocreatem in caelo edes!

[Interaxus]

Adrianus:

I sympathize with your platform porting problems. Some years ago I wrote what I thought was a sophisticated program for inhouse language training at a large multinational company. But I made a serious mistake. I used Visual Basic. Fun while it lasted, but then Bill Gates pulled the plug on the language.

Since then I've trimmed this relic of bygone ages to deliver Latin courseware for my personal amusement. But the thought of porting it to a modern Web platform totally daunts me.

Hope you bag that pie.

Cheers,
Int

[Lex]

But the thought of porting it to a modern Web platform totally daunts me.

Porting to VB.NET would not necessarily involve using a web browser interface.

BTW, Adrianus, you can get MS Visual C++ in an "Express" edition for free. I don't know if it will do everything you need, but it's worth a shot.

[adrianus]

Thanks, Lex. It's not the tools that I lack but the specialist knowledge and experience required. I persevere, though. I'm a sufficient ass that carrot or cake, it's the same to me. "Will work for food!". It's a pride thing!
Gratias tibi, Lex. Non instrumenta sed scientia peritiaque specialis quae carent. Duro autem. Artocreas mihi ut carota asino. "Laborabo escae!" Res superbiam spectat!

[Interaxus]

Lex:

Yes, I see Microsoft finally responded to the barrage of criticism from customers (developers) who felt they’d ‘been deprived of their assets’.

For example, Wikipedia notes:

Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition does contain the Visual Basic 6.0 converter, so it is a way to evaluate feasibility of conversion from older versions of Visual Basic.

However, many think:

... the cost in terms of redevelopment effort is too high for any benefits that might be gained by converting to VB.NET ...

So chances are I’ve ‘lost my assets’. Maybe I’ll check out the latest offerings anyway. Just think if I could find someone to do the job for me.

Cheers,
Int

[Lex]

Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition does contain the Visual Basic 6.0 converter, so it is a way to evaluate feasibility of conversion from older versions of Visual Basic.

My point with my last post was not about a conversion tool, though. I was just pointing out that a VB.NET app doesn't have to be a Web Forms app. It can be a Windows Forms app. So the differences wouldn't be that radical; you'd just have to do some translation. And the GUI development IDE is similar, although admittedly not the same.

So chances are I’ve ‘lost my assets’.

If you don't want to make any porting effort whatsoever, probably so. Microsoft invested so much into .NET, that one's only options with them now appear to be some flavor of .NET, or C++, and backwards compatibility be damned!

[Lex]

Thanks, Lex. It's not the tools that I lack but the specialist knowledge and experience required.

There's a lot of good study material on Visual C++ out there if you know where to look and are persistent; like rapidshare.com, for instance.

[Interaxus]

Lex:

Points taken. Thanks!

Cheers,
Int

[adrianus]

There's a lot of good study material on Visual C++ out there

I have good study material coming out my ears, Lex. It's not the instruments; it's the effort and time required that weighs heavy. The trick is starting. What is started is half done. I have too many reasons not to start.

Sunt copiosa instrumenta discendi. Quàm magnum est conatus et tempus quod requiritur. Opus est incipere. Dimidium facti, qui coepit, habet. Tot tantisque rationibus procrastino.

[Lex]

I have too many reasons not to start.

Ah. I understand completely. I'm the same way with language study. I have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to study material, partly thanks to Textkit, but it's making myself hunker down and do some work that is the hard part.

[adrianus]

Well, as a llama, Lex, you have the advantage of being able to take in more oxygen and of having nice wool, so you can go higher and carry more.
Facilius tibi est, Lex. Tu llama glama altiùs ascendere potes quià plus oxygenii exceptandi et maius onus portandi capax, non minùs munda lana tua.

[Lex]

Well, as a llama, Lex, you have the advantage of being able to take in more oxygen and of having nice wool, so you can go higher and carry more.

Yes, that is true. We camelids are superior to you simians in many ways. If only we had opposable thumbs... *sigh*