Epictetus Study Group

[mjanderson]

Hello everybody,

There has been some interest in a study of Epictetus' Discourses, and I was wondering whether anyone else would like to go through the text. The Greek text can be found here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ext%3ddisc
and here:
http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE ... F%CF%82%29

In addition, an overview of Epictetus' thought can be found at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, for anyone interested:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epictetus/

We can negotiate the rate at which we'll go through the text, based on people's Greek ability and time commitments.

- Michael Anderson

[modus.irrealis]

About how fast we go, my preference is the faster the better, but I'm pretty much ok with anything.

[thesaurus]

I would like to take part. My Greek is assuredly worse than yours, but I will try to keep up the best I can. I'd say slower rather than a faster pace, but because I'm the weak link I encourage you to press forward, knowing that I might not be able to get through it all.

Regarding my skill: I'm self-taught and I've managed to work through a few things like Plato's Apology and works of that ilk. I've been reconsolidating my skills by working through the two volumes of the Italian Athenaze again (which I originally completed last spring/summer), and I'm currently in the second volume.

[LSorenson]

The most important Discourse of Επίκητος is the first book, which also has a commentary on the Greek text by Robert F. Dobbin ( Epictetus, Discourses, Book I Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1998). http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/312789163& ... ef_results.

There were originally eight books, only four have survived intact, in addition to the Enchiridion which is kind of a summary of the Discourses.

Louis Sorenson

[mjanderson]

Ok, so it seems that we have at least 3 people on board. Louis, are you interested in reading along as well?

I would like to do a couple paragraphs at a time, working through them in detail. I'm for keeping up a brisk pace, though I'll let others suggest what such a pace may be; I'm on summer break now, and can use this for writing papers in the Fall, so I most likely have more time to devote than others. There are English translations available, so people with worse Greek or less time can participate in every other session or so and read the translation to keep up with Epictetus' thought.

Are there any stipulations for setting up a Textkit study group, like the number of participants?

- Michael Anderson

[thesaurus]

Are there any stipulations for setting up a Textkit study group, like the number of participants?

From what I've observed in the other, recent Textkit groups, setting up a group the "formal" way may not be the best option right now. There seems to be trouble using the platforms and contacting administrators. With a presumably small group, our best bet may be to just create an email list and write our translations/questions to one another.

[LSorenson]

I would be interested in reading Discourses Book 1

Louis

[LSorenson]

Epictetus' Discourses and Enchiridion were written by his student Arrian. They are written in what is termed 'Literary Koine'. Arrian's other books are written in an Atticizing style. The hardest thing about reading Epictetus is getting a handle on his terminology. A list of his terms with their definitions compiled by a current Stoic scholar can be found at http://www.letsreadgreek.com/epictetus/ ... yterms.htm

Louis

[mjanderson]

Thanks for the info, Louis and thesaurus.

We'll look into an email list then. Alternatively, we could set up a private web page or blog, to keep the material in a centralized spot and not cluttering up mailboxes. I wouldn't mind setting it up, if this is agreeable to everyone else.

- Michael Anderson

[annis]

One summer swiftnicholas and I tried a translation blog for us to buff up our Latin. The format worked well, but we were both too busy to get really extensive use out of it. Someone could post the Greek text, and the people's replies could be translations and discussion of the many cruces that will inevitably arrise. I suspect a Google Groups group might work well, too, without quite as much advertising as some free mailing list services have.

I could also set up a Moodle course on Scholiastae. If I recall correctly, it has a lesson-discussion-like concept that would work for this.

I may or may not be taking a Homeric Hymns class this fall, so I cannot commit to participating in this group yet, but I've long been a fan of the Stoics.

[LSorenson]

A Moodle course? I just ran across this software and was thinking about using it for a Beginning Greek class I am teaching this year. Sounds interesting.

While Perseus gives the text and one can download the vocabulary, the Perseus vocabulary list is just a 'guess list'. Each specific word in the text is not pegged to the correct lemma - Perseus does have a rating option which lets people select which lemma they think any specific word comes from. If Perseus is robust (i.e. does not have excessive down time -- it is Summer, and few Greek/Latin neophites are using Perseus), this would be a good way to share the reading groups contributions with the rest of the internet world. In other words, if those in the reading group peg the words in the Discourses to the correct lemma on Perseus' reading page, more long-lasting results could be acheived.)

On the other hand, I would be happy to use an Access database to peg each lemma to the correct word - and then publish that to the web. I had (and still have this goal for the Enchiridion). Shenkl's appendixes are invaluable for the words and constructions used in all of Epictetus' writings. If Schenkl's appendixes could digitally converted, it would be a great resource for all who read Epictetus. (Perhaps in the future). But such a project is not needed for a reading group's success.

Schenkl's Appendixes can be downloaded from http://www.letsreadgreek.com/epictetus.

So far it seems most of those people interested in reading the Discourses have a fair amount of Greek under their belt. So if we go forward, who will propose a reading schedule? How many words a day/week (or pages in a Loeb edition)?

Louis

[lvcretivs]

I would be very interested in reading Epictetus. I've written several papers on his Discourses, so actually reading it in Greek would be an interesting experience. Plus, I need to review Greek for classes this fall.

[mjanderson]

Hello, annis and lvcretivs. I hope that you guys will be able to participate as well.

A Moodle course sounds interesting; I haven't tried that before. Let's go with that option unless someone has reservations.

To set a goal out there, let's try to first get through lines 1 - 17 of the first book (ending with '"πῶς οὖν πέφυκεν;" ὡς ἂν ὁ θεὸς θέλῃ.') We'll skip the introduction, at least for now. And let's get this done within a week after the Moodle course (or whatever we choose) has been started. We can speed things up afterward if people want.

- Michael Anderson

[thesaurus]

To set a goal out there, let's try to first get through lines 1 - 17 of the first book (ending with '"πῶς οὖν πέφυκεν;" ὡς ἂν ὁ θεὸς θέλῃ.') We'll skip the introduction, at least for now. And let's get this done within a week after the Moodle course (or whatever we choose) has been started. We can speed things up afterward if people want.

Sounds like a plan!

[LSorenson]

Regarding the amount of Greek text to be read. I went through the first page on Perseus (section 1.1.) There are about 10 words per line and about 60 lines in section 1.1. of the Dialogues. Sections 1-17 are about 40 lines of 10 words each, which is about 400 words. Each page of a Loeb's edition are about 200 words per page (30 lines at 7 words each line). So this is a substantial amount of Greek to read for novices, but is an average amount to read for a bi-weekly advanced/intermediate class in a university setting. I guess the amount really depends on the people involved. Regardless, I would like to see a posted schedule for the entire Dialogues I group; If everyone will be reading the entire Dialogues 1, we need to know the amount, section(s) and dates.

Louis Sorenson

[annis]

Since people seem willing to try the Moodle route.

My email address is public — there's an email link off under my "Do Not Scream" sign. If you want a Moodle account, please email me your (1) Email address (2) what you want your Moodle login to be and (3) your real name (if you're willing). I've been making the Moodle groups private — random strangers can only see the names of the groups that exist, not who's in them, etc. When I have the group set up and accounts created, I'll mail out info on how to log in first, change your password, etc., and we can go from there.

[annis]

Ok. The Moodle course exists. Two people have sent me their info and have accounts now. I also put the entire Discourses (from the Greek Wikisource, evidently the Perseus text) on the Wiki side of Scholiastae, where I at least will be putting vocab notes.

I was surprised to discover that there are plenty of ancient scholia and commentaries on the Enchiridion, but none seem to have been written (or survived) for the Discourses.

That list of Stoic vocab is very useful.

[LSorenson]

The book Thurot, Charles 1903. Epictete, Manuel. http://www.letsreadgreek.com/epictetus/ ... ridion.pdf has a section at the end on key terms. It's great because there are long extracts from Epictetus which further explain the terms; pp 49-71 Lexique des Mots Techniques.

Louis

[TamerOfHorses]

Hey where are you guys now? I'm going to start reading and see if I catch up. I don't know if I'll be up to your guys' level but I'm going to be a senior at UofM this fall, studied at the ICCS in Rome, and have 6 semesters of college Greek. My interests are Greek philosophy and existentialism. If I can still get in on this and you think I can contribute, I'd love to join. My email address is narahbhavati@gmail.com

I'm going to start reading right now!

Thanks!

[mjanderson]

Hello TamerOfHorses,

We finished lines 1-17 in the first section of the first book last week, and those are up with notes at http://www.scholiastae.org/scholia/Epic ... .1#line_14. Next Monday we will be finishing the first section of the first book (lines 18-32). If you can get a hold of William Annis, who runs the Moodle administration (you can get to his email above by clicking on his username), then feel free to contribute whatever you can translate from that assignment. Section 2 lines 1-18 are due the next week.

- Michael Anderson

[TamerOfHorses]

I sent an email to annis.

thanks,

Nick

[pster]

I was just reviewing Epictetus. I pulled down my red Long and Sedley and they seem to rank Epictetus low among Stoics. They rank Chrysippus number one and below him Zeno, Cleanthes, Sphaerus, Dogenes of Babylon, Antipater, Panaetius, Posidonius, but don't even bother to mention Epictetus in their introduction. Indeed, they give him maybe 5% of of the space they give Chrysippus. And I remember when I studied Stoicism in some fair bit of detail Chrysippus was pretty important. I don't remember much discussion of Epictetus. Anyway, I was just thinking about catching up with you guys and had to refresh my memories of Epictetus and this was the first thing I noticed. I draw no conclusions, but I want to ask what the attraction was of this particular text?

[annis]

I draw no conclusions, but I want to ask what the attraction was of this particular text?

First, because there is a text at all. The longest continuous text from any early Stoic is Chrysippus' Hymn to Zeus. After that it's only fragments and quotations from other authors.

Second, while Epictetus can't match Chrysippus' foundational role in Stoic philosophy, his works have been the main introduction for quite some time. The Enchiridion in particular has been widely read for centuries and centuries.

[pster]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

[modus.irrealis]

I posted a message about this on the site for the group as well but in case people are more likely to see it here or there are new people interested in joining, I thought I'd post a message here as well. The Epictetus study group has basically come to a halt, but I'm still interested in continuing it in the new year and I was wondering if anybody else is also interested. And if there are any suggestions for changing the format, which so far has been everybody posts a translation of the week's passage and we discuss, we could discuss that as well.