μέλω

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
Location: Magna Graecia

μέλω

Post by pster »

From Aplogy 24c. I don't understand how the final subordinate phrase works. I get the meaning, but I can't understand completely the function of the relative pronoun ὧν , the "nothing" οὐδὲν (which perplexes me more than any other word in greek!), the demonstrative τούτῳ, or the verb "to be a concern to" μέλω. Can somebody just line up the various objects and subjects for me?

ἐγὼ δέ γε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἀδικεῖν φημι Μέλητον, ὅτι σπουδῇ χαριεντίζεται, ῥᾳδίως εἰς ἀγῶνα καθιστὰς ἀνθρώπους, περὶ πραγμάτων προσποιούμενος σπουδάζειν καὶ κήδεσθαι ὧν οὐδὲν τούτῳ πώποτε ἐμέλησεν:

cb
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: μέλω

Post by cb »

hi, see section I.4 of the LSJ article on μέλω here, which explains the syntax of most of the clause you're referring to:
http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... lter=CUTF8

ὧν stands for πραγμάτων, τούτῳ stands for Μελήτωι, and for οὐδέν (in the neuter acc., used as an adv.) see section III of the LSJ article on οὐδείς here:
http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... lter=CUTF8

cheers, chad :)

User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
Location: Magna Graecia

Re: μέλω

Post by pster »

So this is an impersonal construction? Why aorist? Why not present or imperfect?

Swth\r
Textkit Fan
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: μέλω

Post by Swth\r »

Because the aorist has different verbal aspect from imperfect and it reffers to past, not to present.
Dives qui sapiens est...

User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
Location: Magna Graecia

Re: μέλω

Post by pster »

Swth\r wrote:Because the aorist has different verbal aspect from imperfect and it reffers to past, not to present.
When talking about a concern that someone has had over a long period in the past, it seems to me that the imperfect would have the appropriate aspect. The
aorist is more for singular actions or events. So I don't quite see your point.

If I'm right about that, and I may well be wrong, but if I am right about that, I would then ask whether it is possible that the οὐδὲν in the sense of "not once"
takes the concern and makes it singular (the "once") and brings in the aorist that way.

NateD26
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
Contact:

Re: μέλω

Post by NateD26 »

I think the impersonal use specifically in the aorist and the addition of the adverb πώποτε
makes it very clear:

...about matters which to him (Meletos) there was not at all a concern ever yet.
Nate.

Swth\r
Textkit Fan
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: μέλω

Post by Swth\r »

pster wrote:
Swth\r wrote:Because the aorist has different verbal aspect from imperfect and it reffers to past, not to present.
When talking about a concern that someone has had over a long period in the past, it seems to me that the imperfect would have the appropriate aspect. The
aorist is more for singular actions or events. So I don't quite see your point.

If I'm right about that, and I may well be wrong, but if I am right about that, I would then ask whether it is possible that the οὐδὲν in the sense of "not once"
takes the concern and makes it singular (the "once") and brings in the aorist that way.
Ἀόριστος (χρόνος) in greek means "indefinite" (tense). What this tense really shows is something that occured in the past without expressing if this happened once or more times, for a while or for a longer period of time. The use of "οὐδέν" has nothing to do with it. It could also be used with an imperfect tense.

See, for example, in Smyth, § 1923:

'The aorist expresses the mere occurance of an action in the past. The action is regarded as an event of single fact without reference to the length of time it occupied.'

See also § 1927 about "complexive" or "concentrative" aorist... :wink:
Dives qui sapiens est...

User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
Location: Magna Graecia

Re: μέλω

Post by pster »

I was going to find all occurrences in the Apology, but I can't make Perseus work well for me. There are two versions and it is so slow. I even wrote the President of Tufts about it, but nothing has changed. Do any of you guys make Perseus hum as far as searches like this go?

NateD26
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
Contact:

Re: μέλω

Post by NateD26 »

I've used diogenes instead.

μέλει: 32d2,3
ἔμελεν: none
μέλον (neut. participle): 24d4
ἐμέλησεν: 24c8, 26b2 - both w/ πώποτε
μεμέληκεν: 24d9, 25c3 - identical phrase: οὐδέν σοι μ.

all with dative of person, all impersonal.
there are no other forms of this verb in the Apology.
Nate.

Post Reply