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Like to Start New Group

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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:00 am

Hi, Prometheus. Here are my answers to your final exercise (and time permitted, I'll attempt the rest).

being present παρών (-όντος)
taking λαμβάνων (-οντος) [here in 2nd.aor. λαβών (-όντος)]
having ἔχων (-οντος)
ruling same as reigning?
killing ἀποκτείνων (-οντος) [here in fut. ἀποκτενῶν (-οῦντος)]
reigning βασιλεύων (-οντος)
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:00 pm

1 - [10] Δαρείου καὶ Παρυσάτιδος γίγνονται παῖδες δύο, πρεσβύτερος μὲν Ἀρταξέρξης, νεώτερος δὲ Κῦρος·
2 - [9] ἐπεὶ δὲ ἠσθένει Δαρεῖος καὶ ὑπώπτευε τελευτὴν τοῦ βίου, ἐβούλετο τὼ παῖδε ἀμφοτέρω παρεῖναι.
3 - [8] ὁ μὲν οὖν πρεσβύτερος παρὼν ἐτύγχανε·
4 - [7] Κῦρον δὲ μεταπέμπεται ἀπὸ τῆς ἀρχῆς ἧς αὐτὸν σατράπην ἐποίησε, καὶ στρατηγὸν δὲ αὐτὸν ἀπέδειξε πάντων ὅσοι ἐς Καστωλοῦ πεδίον ἁθροίζονται.
5 - [6] ἀναβαίνει οὖν ὁ Κῦρος λαβὼν Τισσαφέρνην ὡς φίλον, καὶ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἔχων ὁπλίτας ἀνέβη τριακοσίους, ἄρχοντα δὲ αὐτῶν Ξενίαν Παρράσιον.
6 - [5] ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος καὶ κατέστη εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν Ἀρταξέρξης, Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἀδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύοι αὐτῷ.
7 - [4] ὁ δὲ πείθεται καὶ συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον ὡς ἀποκτενῶν·
8 - [3] ἡ δὲ μήτηρ ἐξαιτησαμένη αὐτὸν ἀποπέμπει πάλιν ἐπὶ τὴν ἀρχήν.
9 - [2] ὁ δ᾽ ὡς ἀπῆλθε κινδυνεύσας καὶ ἀτιμασθείς, βουλεύεται ὅπως μήποτε ἔτι ἔσται ἐπὶ τῷ ἀδελφῷ, ἀλλά, ἢν δύνηται, βασιλεύσει ἀντ᾽ ἐκείνου.
10 - [1] Παρύσατις μὲν δὴ ἡ μήτηρ ὑπῆρχε τῷ Κύρῳ, φιλοῦσα αὐτὸν μᾶλλον ἢ τὸν βασιλεύοντα Ἀρταξέρξην.

a more scrambled order would have been welcomed :-)
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:05 pm

(1) Κῦρος, ὁ τοῦ Δαρείου υἱός, Πέρσης ἦν καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός. σατράπην δὲ αὐτὸν ἐποίησεν ὁ Δαρεῖος τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. (2) χωρία δὲ ἰσχυρὰ εἶχεν ἐν τῇ ἀρχῇ ὁ Κῦρος καὶ πλοῖα μακρὰ ἐν τῇ θαλάττῃ, καὶ στρατιῶται δὲ αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ ἦσαν ἀγαθοί, ὁπλῖται Ἑλληνικοὶ καὶ πελτασταὶ καὶ τοξόται Περσικοί. (3) Τισσαφέρνης δέ, ὁ τῆς Καρίας σατράπης, τῷ Κύρῳ πολέμιος ἦν, τότε δὲ οὔτε ἐστράτευεν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν οὔτε διήρπαζε τὴν χώραν. (4) Κῦρος γὰρ στρατηγὸς ἐν πολέμῳ δεινὸς ἦν, υἱὸς δὲ τοῦ Δαρείου· ὥστε φόβον εἶχεν ὁ Τισσαφέρνης πρὸς Κῦρον.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:40 pm

from Frost's Alpha primer, talking about Cyrus:

Κῦρος, ὁ Δαρείου, ἀδελφὸς ἦν Αρταξέρξου τῆς Μηδίας βασιλέως· καἳ ὁ πατὴρ ἐποίησεν αὐτὸν στρατηγὸν τῶν τῆς Φρυγίας στρατιωτῶν. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησεν ὁ πατήρ, ὁ Κῦρος σὺν μυρίοις 'Ελλησι καὶ δυνάμει βαρβάρων ἐστρατεύσατο ἐπὶ τὸν βασιλέα, εἰς τὴν Βαβυλωνίαν.

Cyrus, Son of Darius, was Artaxerxes' brother, the king of Media; and his father made him general of Phrygia's soldiers.
When his father had died (Smyth §1943), Cyrus, in company with countless Greeks and quantity of barbarians, waged war against the king, into the territory of Babylonia (LSJ εἰς A.I.).

[edit: corrected my mistake by changing kingdom (ἡ βασιλεἰᾱ, it'd have been here in acc. τὴν βασιλείᾱν) to king (from ὁ βασιλεύς)]
Last edited by NateD26 on Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm

Thanks, Nate! (You like your Greek "well-"scrambled? I'll keep that in mind for future breakfasts! ;))

By "ruling" and "reigning" I had in mind the two words, ἄρχοντα and βασιλοντα, in the first four lines of the Anabasis. And thanks for pointing out the errors that that one of my "present participles" was actually a future participle, and one an aorist (there seem to be a couple of other aorist participles in there, too).

In the Frost excerpt, I would have translated δυνάμει βαρβάρων as "barbarian/foreign forces".

(By the way, didn't you say that you had some brief compositions based on White's First Greek Book?)

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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:16 pm

Thanks for the clarification of the difference between ἄρχων and βασιλεύων.
and it is actually the first time I encountered δυνάμει, searched LSJ for the definitions and decided on one,
but yours makes more sense here (though it is in singular, force of foreigners)

About the compositions I should have been more clearer as it was related to Athanze book.
I have two short ones on Jay's forum, and I hope to write some more on both Athenaze and FGB soon.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:41 pm

5 - [6] ἀναβαίνει οὖν ὁ Κῦρος λαβὼν Τισσαφέρνην ὡς φίλον, καὶ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἔχων ὁπλίτας ἀνέβη τριακοσίους, ἄρχοντα δὲ αὐτῶν Ξενίαν Παρράσιον.

I think I should have translated ἄρχοντα as "leading" or "commanding" here, rather than "ruling".
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:20 pm

I think that in this case, it is not a participle but a masculine noun in acc.s. from ἄρχων (-οντος), ruler, commander.
it's in the accusative because it's still the object of ἔχων:

...he also embarked having 300 Greek hoplites, and (having) Xenias of Parrhasia as their commander.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Just to pause for a moment, I'd like to remind readers that there's a sort of division of labor working out, with my new-fangled reading-based exercises based on White's reading exercises and Xenophon's Anabasis on this thread in TextKit, and the actual Greek-English and English-Greek translation exercises from White's First Greek Book on Jason's site, http://www.jhronline.com/forum/index.php. (I'll try to contribute to the translation exercises also, when I can.) Grammatical discussion and, perhaps, Socratic dialogue exploring the true meaning of the words ;) can be found on either forum.

I'd like to know, besides those of us who have been posting (who clearly have been learning Greek for a while), whether there are also readers for whom White's book really is their "first Greek book". Please let us know how you're finding the readings and the exercises and what you would find helpful to focus on.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:31 pm

(Needless to say, others are welcome to speak up and also to contribute their own exercises.)

In the meantime, here's the next reading selection from White, this time from Lesson 14 (Section 134):

134. Artaxerxes becomes King and arrests Cyrus
Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.

(Anyone know a convenient way to create a vocabulary list?)

As a preliminary exercise, how about removing the conjunctions and particles and breaking it up into short, simple sentences, that are easier to make sense of at a glance? For instance, the first sentence could become

1. Κῦρος σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:32 pm

In the next exercise, you'll be asked to review typical masculine nouns ending in -O and plug in the right form of ἀδελφός (brother).
By way of a quick review, look at this excerpt from the story of Cain and Abel in the Septuagint (Gen. 2:8-9):

καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ καὶ ἀνέστη Καιν ἐπὶ Αβελ τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀπέκτεινεν αὐτόν.
καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Καιν
Ποῦ ἐστιν Αβελ ὁ ἀδελφός σου;
ὁ δὲ εἶπεν
Οὐ γινώσκω· μὴ φύλαξ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μού εἰμι ἐγώ;


The pattern in the singular is

ὁ ἀδελφός (nominative--subject)
τὸν ἀδελφόν (accusative--object)
τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ (genitive--possessive)
τῷ ἀδελφῳ (dative--indirect object--not shown in this excerpt)


Exercise on Second Declension (-O Stem Nouns)
a. Insert the correct case form of ἀδελφός (brother):

Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου _____________ ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν _______________ ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.

b. Insert the correct case form of the definite article (masculine):
Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ ______ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε _______ Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει _________ Κῦρον πρὸς ______ ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:42 pm

Break the compound verbs (in boldface) into their root verb and prefix (e.g. ἐπιβουλεύει = ἐπι + βουλεύει).

Τισσαφέρνης δέ, ὁ τῆς Καρίας σατράπης, τῷ Κύρῳ πολέμιος ἦν, τότε δὲ οὔτε ἐστράτευεν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν οὔτε διήρπαζε_________________τὴν χώραν. Κῦρος γὰρ στρατηγὸς ἐν πολέμῳ δεινὸς ἦν, υἱὸς δὲ τοῦ Δαρείου· ὥστε φόβον εἶχεν ὁ Τισσαφέρνης πρὸς Κῦρον.

ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει___________________________ τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει ___________________αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει__________________________ Κῦρον.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:06 pm

Match the verbs (in boldface) in the reading passages from Lessons 13 and 14 with their translations:
125. The Parentage, Race, and Power of Cyrus the Younger
Κῦρος, ὁ τοῦ Δαρείου υἱός, Πέρσης ἦν καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός. σατράπην δὲ αὐτὸν ἐποίησεν ὁ Δαρεῖος τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. χωρία δὲ ἰσχυρὰ εἶχεν ἐν τῇ ἀρχῇ ὁ Κῦρος καὶ πλοῖα μακρὰ ἐν τῇ θαλάττῃ, καὶ στρατιῶται δὲ αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ ἦσαν ἀγαθοί, ὁπλῖται Ἑλληνικοὶ καὶ πελτασταὶ καὶ τοξόται Περσικοί.

Τισσαφέρνης δέ, ὁ τῆς Καρίας σατράπης, τῷ Κύρῳ πολέμιος ἦν, τότε δὲ οὔτε ἐστράτευεν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν οὔτε διήρπαζε τὴν χώραν. Κῦρος γὰρ στρατηγὸς ἐν πολέμῳ δεινὸς ἦν, υἱὸς δὲ τοῦ Δαρείου· ὥστε φόβον εἶχεν ὁ Τισσαφέρνης πρὸς Κῦρον.

134. Artaxerxes becomes King and arrests Cyrus
Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.


1. ἦν_____________________
2. ἐ-ποίησεν _______________________
3. εἶχεν____________________________
4. ἦσαν ___________________________
5. ἐ-στράτευεν______________________
6. δια-ήρπαζε_______________________
7. ἐ-τελεύτησε______________________
8. ἐ-βασίλευσε______________________
9. δια-βάλλει _______________________
10. ἐπι-βουλεύει______________________
11. συν-λαμβάνει_____________________


a. slandered ("cast against")
b. plots ("wishes against")
c. became king ("reigned")
d. captures, arrests ("takes along")
e. pillaged ("robbed throughout")
f. had
g. was
h. died ("finished")
i. made war, campaigned
j. were
k. made
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:26 pm

Exercise: Break into Many Short, Simple Sentences (Solution)
Let me provide solutions to my own exercise from Oct. 16 about how a passage like the one from White's Lesson 14 can be broken down into simpler sentences, eliminating conjunctions like KAI and OYN and particles like MEN and δὲ to make reading and understanding the basic statements that much simpler. I'll also translate these simplified sentences, in order to enhance your comprehension when you read the passage the next time.

Exercise: Break into Many Short, Simple Sentences (Solution)
134. Artaxerxes becomes King and arrests Cyrus

[1.] Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. [2.]ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, [3.]καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. [4.] ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.



(1) Κῦρος σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας. 'Cyrus was the Satrap of Lydia'
(+ Κῦρος σατράπης ἦν τῆς Φρυγίας. ''Cyrus was the Satrap of Phrygia';
Κῦρος σατράπης ἦν τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ''Cyrus was the Satrap of Cappadocia')
(2) ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος. 'Darius died'
(3) Ἁρταξέρξης ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν. 'Artaxerxes became king of the Persians'
(Ἁρταξέρξης ἦν ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς 'Artaxerxes was Cyrus's brother')

Complex sentence [2]-> ἐπεὶ (2), (3)
[2.]ἐπεὶ δὲ (2) ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, (3) Ἁρταξέρξης (ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς) ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν

(4) Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον 'Tissaphernes accuses Cyrus'
(5) (Κῦρος) ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ (τὸν ἁδελφὸν) 'Cyrus plots against him (his brother)'

Complex sentence [3]->(4) ὡς (5)
[3.] (4) Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς (5) ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ.

(6) ὁ Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον 'Artaxerxes arrests Cyrus.'
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:21 am

Thank you, Prometheus for your helpful exercises. very much appreciated!
your detailed last post on how to separate complex sentences to its constituent parts
does make life easier. :)

in this sentence though:
(4) Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον 'Tissaphernes accuses Cyrus'
(5) (Κῦρος) ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ (τὸν ἁδελφὸν) 'Cyrus plots against him (his brother)'

αὐτῷ stands for τῷ ἀδελφῷ because that's the case this verb requires.

a. Insert the correct case form of ἀδελφός (brother):
Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδεφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἀδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.

b. Insert the correct case form of the definite article (masculine):
Κῦρος οὖν σατράπης ἦν τῆς Λυδίας καὶ τῆς Φρυγίας καὶ τῆς Καππαδοκίας. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει Κῦρον.
Last edited by NateD26 on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:47 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:27 am

Τισσαφέρνης δέ, ὁ τῆς Καρίας σατράπης, τῷ Κύρῳ πολέμιος ἦν, τότε δὲ οὔτε ἐστράτευεν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν οὔτε διήρπαζε (διὰ+ἥρπαζε) τὴν χώραν. Κῦρος γὰρ στρατηγὸς ἐν πολέμῳ δεινὸς ἦν, υἱὸς δὲ τοῦ Δαρείου· ὥστε φόβον εἶχεν ὁ Τισσαφέρνης πρὸς Κῦρον.

ἐπεὶ δὲ ἐτελεύτησε Δαρεῖος, Ἁρταξέρξης ὁ τοῦ Κύρου ἀδελφὸς ἐβασίλευσε τῶν Περσῶν, καὶ Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει (διὰ+βάλλει) τὸν Κῦρον πρὸς τὸν ἁδελφὸν ὡς ἐπιβουλεύει (ἐπὶ+βουλεύει) αὐτῷ. ὁ δ' Ἁρταξέρξης συλλαμβάνει (σὺν+λαμβάνει) Κῦρον.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:32 am

1. ἦν was
2. ἐ-ποίησεν made
3. εἶχεν had
4. ἦσαν were
5. ἐ-στράτευεν made war, campaigned
6. δια-ήρπαζε pillaged ("robbed throughout")
7. ἐ-τελεύτησε died ("finished")
8. ἐ-βασίλευσε became king ("reigned")
9. δια-βάλλει slandered ("cast against")
10. ἐπι-βουλεύει plots ("wishes against")
11. συν-λαμβάνει captures, arrests ("takes along")
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:25 am

NateD26 wrote:in this sentence though:
(4) Τισσαφέρνης διαβάλλει τὸν Κῦρον 'Tissaphernes accuses Cyrus'
(5) (Κῦρος) ἐπιβουλεύει αὐτῷ (τὸν ἁδελφὸν) 'Cyrus plots against him (his brother)'

αὐτῷ stands for τῷ ἀδελφῷ because that's the case this verb requires.


You're right! Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:25 pm

Hi, Prometheus.

I sat down the past couple of days to attempt writing a short story with vocabulary from FGB,
but ended up using constructions not yet learned (I've learned most of them before; others with
the help of Smyth) and new vocabulary and special meanings from LSJ. Hope you and others will like
this and suggest corrections.

EDIT: corrected one small part.

ὅ τε πελταστὴς καὶ ὁ τοξότης διαλεγόμενοι ἐν τῷ χωρίῳ ἐκάθιζον.
οὗτος ἐκείνῳ ἔλεγεν· "ἰδού· τόξον μου καλὸν καὶ ἀγαθόν ἐστιν·
ἠγόρασα τοῦτο τὸ τόξον τῇ προτέρῃ (ἡμέρᾳ)." ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· "τόξον
σου οὐδενὸς ἀξιῶ. ἰδοὺ γὰρ πέλτη μου καλλίων καὶ ἀμείνων ἢ
τόξου σου."

πολὺν χρόνον οὕτω διελέγοντο μέχρι καμὼν εἰσέβη ὁ στρατηγὸς
εἰς τὸ χωρίον. ἀλλήλοις οὖν "σίγα," ἔφασαν· δεινὸς γὰρ ἦν καὶ
ἐφοβοῦντο μὴ αὐτοῖς ὀργίζηται (or ὀργίζοιτο). δι᾿ ὀλίγου
ἐβουλεύοντο τίς αὐτῶν τῷ στρατηγῷ προσχωρήσει καὶ μειλίξει
αὐτόν (or ὅστις...προσχωρήσοι...μειλίξοι). τέλος δ᾿ ὁ τοξότης
τολμήσας ἑκὼν αὐτῷ προσεχώρει καὶ "χαῖρε, ὦ στρατηγέ," ἔφη· "τί
πάσχεις;"

ἐνταῦθα δὴ ὁ στρατηγὸς ἰσχυρὸς εἶναι πᾶσι δοκῶν ἔκλαυσεν [aor.
of κλαίω/κλάω (incotr.) = began weeping]. καὶ πολὺν (χρόνον)
οὐδεὶς ἐδύνατο μειλίττειν αὐτὸν ἀλλ᾿ ὅμως ἐπειρᾶτ᾿ ὁ τοξότης ὡς
ἐδύνατο. μειλιξάμενος περὶ τῶν πεπονθότων ἔλεγεν· "εἰς τὸν οἶκον
ἐτύγχανον εἰσβαίνων ὅτε τὴν θυγατέρα μου ἀκίνητον οὖσαν εἶδον.
ἡ γυνὴ οὐκ ᾕδη αὐτὴν τὰ πεπονθότα. εἰ αὐτὸς παρῆ, ἀπεκώλυον ἂν
τὸν πονηρὸν αὐτὴν μὴ ἀποκτείνειν." καὶ οὐκ ἔφη ἔχειν τί πράττῃ
(or πράττοι).

κλαίων δ᾿ "ὡς καλὴ ἦν," ἔφη· "μόνον δώδεκ᾿ ἔτη γεγονυῖα."
ἐξώρκου οὖν τόν τε τοξότην καὶ πάντας τοὺς παρόντας ἐν τῷ χωρίῳ ἦ
μὴν διώξειν τοῦτον τὸν πονηρόν. ἔλεγεν ὅτι εἰ συλλαμβάνοι
αὐτόν, ἀποκτενοίη [i.e. "ἐὰν συλλαμβάνω αὐτόν, ἀποκτενῶ"
(pres.subj. » fut.ind.)]. τέλος δ᾿ ἐξέβη ὁ στρατηγὸς ἐκ τοῦ χωρίου
πρὸς τὸν οἶκον τῆς θυγατρὸς λελειμμένος.
Last edited by NateD26 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:33 pm

Thanks for posting your story, Nate. I'm enjoying it, but it's taking me a while to get through it. I'm moving a paragraph at a time. In the first paragraph (actually, the first sentence), I have questions about the participles διαλεγόμενοι and κάθιζον: Is διαλεγόμενοι a present, middle participle in nominative plural "they are conversing" (presumably middle because of a reciprocal meaning)? Would I get the same meaning if I substituted the present inflected form, like διαλεγόucιv? Shouldn't (ἐν τῷ χωρίῳ) κάθιζον be κάθιζονTEZ because it's plural?
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:15 pm

Hi, Prometheus.

In the first sentence, διαλεγόμενοι is in form present participle but here stands for a temporal clause with the imperfect
ἐπεὶ διελέγοντο and then you have an imperfect verb in 3rd plural which I initially thought to be a compound verb
(κατὰ+ἵζω»καθίζω thus impf. κάθῑζον or I think more accurately καθῖζον) but it was only so in homeric ionic. in Attic,
the regular augmentation in the imperfect applies - ἐκάθιζον [Smyth §450]. corrected this mistake in the story. thanks.

The bowman and the peltast, conversing (when/while they were conversing), were sitting in the place/spot.

[I guess I shouldn't have made these two definite; it doesn't sound so natural]

The aorist participles here are nearly all antecedent in nature, standing in place of
the temporal clause ἐπεὶ/ἐπειδὴ + aor. = After...
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:00 pm

NateD26 wrote:ὅ τε πελταστὴς καὶ ὁ τοξότης διαλεγόμενοι ἐν τῷ χωρίῳ ἐκάθιζον.
οὗτος ἐκείνῳ ἔλεγεν· "ἰδού· τόξον μου καλὸν καὶ ἀγαθόν ἐστιν·
ἠγόρασα τοῦτο τὸ τόξον τῇ προτέρῃ (ἡμέρᾳ)." ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· "τόξον
σου οὐδενὸς ἀξιῶ. ἰδοὺ γὰρ πέλτη μου καλλίων καὶ ἀμείνων ἢ
τόξου σου."


Let me take a stab at translating this. (Beginners who find this even more difficult than I do might find it a good exercise to go through and highlight words and phrases understood, and try to decipher the text around them. Treat it like a puzzle and guess! In this way, use it as an exercise to practice the Greek you know, and only run to the dictionary--or the vocabulary in White's FGB--as a last resort.)

The shield-bearer and the archer were sitting and talking in the field.
One said to the other, "Look, my bow is a fine and beautiful one.
I bought this bow the other day." And the other one said, "Your bow
is no good, since my shield is finer and better than your bow".
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby Prometheus » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:14 pm

The second paragraph of Nate's story:

NateD26 wrote:πολὺν χρόνον οὕτω διελέγοντο μέχρι καμὼν εἰσέβη ὁ στρατηγὸς
εἰς τὸ χωρίον. ἀλλήλοις οὖν "σίγα," ἔφασαν· δεινὸς γὰρ ἦν καὶ
ἐφοβοῦντο μὴ αὐτοῖς ὀργίζηται (or ὀργίζοιτο). δι᾿ ὀλίγου
ἐβουλεύοντο τίς αὐτῶν τῷ στρατηγῷ προσχωρήσει καὶ μειλίξει
αὐτόν (or ὅστις...προσχωρήσοι...μειλίξοι). τέλος δ᾿ ὁ τοξότης
τολμήσας ἑκὼν αὐτῷ προσεχώρει καὶ "χαῖρε, ὦ στρατηγέ," ἔφη· "τί
πάσχεις;"


For a long time they spoke in this way, when the general came
into the field. Each man said to the other "Keep quiet", since it
was frightening and they feared he would be angry at them. A little later
they wanted (to know?) why the general (dative?) came to them (genitive?) and they asked (μειλίξει ?)
him. Finally the bowsman, having honored him (?), came over and said, "Hello, General, Sir".
"What's the matter?"
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Re: Like to Start New Group

Postby NateD26 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:29 pm

Hi, Prometheus. Thanks for posting your translations. :)

few points:
about how to translate the participle διαλεγόμενοι see above. you've treated it as a verb connected with ἐκάθιζον.

in the first paragraph, οὗτος ἐκείνῳ ἔλεγεν, literally meaning "this one (the bowman) said to that one (the peltast)"
can be translated as "the latter said to the former" but yours basically has the same meaning :-)

in the second paragraph, μέχρι here means until, they had spoken this way until (at which point they stopped and
told each other to be quiet) the general entered the place.

though it is possible to treat δεινὸς ἦν as referring to the situation, I meant more so to the general himself
being fearsome and thus (it would have been better to use ὥστε) they were afraid lest he be angry with them.

δι᾿ ὀλίγου ἐβουλεύοντο τίς αὐτῶν τῷ στρατηγῷ προσχωρήσει
καὶ μειλίξει αὐτόν (or ὅστις...προσχωρήσοι...μειλίξοι)

here the medial form of βουλεύω means "deliberate with each other, consider" and can take an indirect question.
you have the question first in its original form (albeit with changed pronoun), and then, in the parenthesis you have the
oblique way of writing it with no change of meaning: a) ὄστις instead of τίς, b)since the governing verb is past tense
(they considered who would...), the verb in the subordinate clause, that is the indirect question, can be written
as the equivalent optative. if the original verb is in future indicative, we turn it to future optative (as I've learned,
its only use is in indirect questions/statements).

μειλίττω = to appease; med. to grow calm, be soothed.

"They deliberated on who of them would (originally 'will') approach the general and appease him."

then finally, the bowman τολμήσας [LSJ. τολμάω in part. he took courage] meaning they kept deliberating until
the bowman took the initiative:
"The bowman, nerving himself (after he had nerved himself), approached the general
of his own will (ἑκών) and said..."

Again, I really appreciate your replies and hope it's a good enough exercise for all of us.
If I'm mistaken in something, please correct me.
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